Makes me glad my reader is not connected

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Uhm, speaking of naïve, YOU may see no particular reason, why a policeman cannot do a body-cavity search on you without probable cause either.... In fact, I am sure, there are some out there, who actually dream of such act being done to them....

Oooookay.

Anyway, Amazon did not "reach out" to the devices and conduct a search. The relevant data is stored on Amazon's servers, and they access that information on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Sonist

But, the rest of us, find this act a violation. Just like we find, that deleting legally purchased files from our devices, without our permission, or a court order, a violation.

I can fully understand your distaste for this. If you prefer another e-book retailer, by all means go for it. However, the Computer Fraud and Abuse act does not apply, as that act applies specifically to computer systems in use by financial institutions, the US government, or used for interstate commerce. Similar acts also would not apply, since Amazon has authorized access to your device.

For example, if you are a current employee of a bank and delete a file (for reasons or motives unknown). What you have done may be illegal, but you are not guilty of unauthorized access to the systems.

There may well be some other relevant law, but it's not that one.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Click through agreements do not trump law. Whatever a click through agreement says is irrelevant. IF it is illegal, then it doesn't matter what their agreement says.

True... unless the click-through agreement essentially grants Amazon access to the device. If access was authorized, it's not hacking, and therefore not illegal in the first place.

Unless, of course, you wish to posit the claim that Amazon does not have access to your Kindle, despite the fact that they transmit files to your system, delete files already (e.g. expired newspapers), and perform firmware updates. E.g. "Amazon does not have access to your Kindle, except when they access your Kindle."

You need to establish that "deleting files on a system to which you have access and/or host" is somehow illegal, and you may not find that so enticing once you consider the myriad consequences.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

In all the examples I know of, the MMORPG data is deleted from the companies server, not from your PC. They specifically design the MMORPG so that the data is on their central servers because of this.

And your book data is kept on Amazon's servers; that's where they made the change.

Or, if you want a more exact parallel: Apple has the ability to disable any application on the iPhone. Should this be illegal? And if so, on what basis?

But my point is not based on the location of the data (or, in the MS case, how long you've got before shutdowns -- and no, 30 minutes is not enough to get all your data off a typical SBS server ). It's that many different companies can and will deny you access to digital content that you have paid for.

So you may not like it, but many companies are pretty much doing the exact same thing, just in slightly different ways. If you dislike this (which, again, is perfectly understandable), you may well find it increasingly difficult to avoid such setups in the future.

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Oh, I agree! But my point was that they won't get away with it in case of pbooks, but do get away with in case of ebooks...

Not if you don't have a Kindle

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

So, we can assume now that anytime a PD book is uploaded for sale, if you purchase it, it will soon be deleted and you will be reimbursed. This should be a given. Any more outcry for this issue should be ignored.

Sorry, but... wrong.

Public domain laws vary from nation to nation, and are a bit complex. However, there are thousands of books in Amazon's store whose status as "public domain" are well established, are not getting pulled, and therefore not at risk.

Originally Posted by griffonwing

NOW the issue is this. Amazon issued this statement first "Apparently, the publisher changed its mind about having electronic versions of Orwell's books. So Amazon removed them from the store..." according to Gizmodo.

As you should know by now, the initial statement is inaccurate and/or incomplete. The books in question were pulled because they were not in the public domain in the US, not because of a "publisher's whim."

Feel free to object to Amazon's behavior, but spare us the inaccurate FUD.

[griffonwing]

As you should know by now, the initial statement is inaccurate and/or incomplete. The books in question were pulled because they were not in the public domain in the US, not because of a "publisher's whim."

Feel free to object to Amazon's behavior, but spare us the inaccurate FUD.

Yes, the quote was inaccurate. But here is the point I was making. Regardless of the real reason (the P issue), Amazon stated they removed the books due to a publisher's whim.

This cements the fact that should a publisher actually change their mind on a book, regardless of reason, Amazon WILL pull the book from their library AND from all the Kindle books sold.

THIS is theft. THIS is breaking and entering, and reneging on a valid purchase. It matters not that in this case, the real reason was PD. By Amazon's own word, should a publisher change their mind, you WILL lose your purchase.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

This cements the fact that should a publisher actually change their mind on a book, regardless of reason, Amazon WILL pull the book from their library AND from all the Kindle books sold.

No they won't. Amazon have said that they have changed their systems so that the book will no longer be removed from peoples' devices in such a circumstance.

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No they won't. Amazon have said that they have changed their systems so that the book will no longer be removed from peoples' devices in such a circumstance.

I know they said that in regards to PD books. They never specified that the system change would carry over to include books that the publishers renege on.

I find it's better to not assume the best. If the system changes include ALL books that are pulled from the library, then great. But if they only allow you to keep the purchased PD books, but still pull the legal ones, then shame.

Still, I will not take the chance.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Darqref

The US Court system has apparently already declared a similar case to be not only legal, but required.

That was patent law, not copyright law. They're completely different things.

Also, as another poster pointed out, a judge/court ordering it and a company doing it on it's own are also completely different things.

So, no, that case was not similar at all.

[carld]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

I know they said that in regards to PD books. They never specified that the system change would carry over to include books that the publishers renege on.

I find it's better to not assume the best. If the system changes include ALL books that are pulled from the library, then great. But if they only allow you to keep the purchased PD books, but still pull the legal ones, then shame.

Still, I will not take the chance.

The publisher didn't renege, the books were uploaded by someone who didn't have the rights, that's an entirely different thing.

As far as non-PD books, someone in another thread mentioned that they had books that the seller had removed from the Kindle store and they were still available for download from their account.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

And your book data is kept on Amazon's servers; that's where they made the change.

You're claiming that no kindles contain any eBooks, that all of the data is stored in Amazons server and never on the kindle? Every time you read an eBook on your kindle the content is coming from Amazon?

I find that highly unlikely. So how do you read an eBook with Whispernet turned off?

Obviously your theory doesn't make any sense.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Then what is the difference between an ebook and pbook in this respect?

Legally, nothing.

In practice, it's a lot easier for a company to "recall" eBooks automatically than it is with pBooks, so they think they can get away with it. IMO, the only reason Amazon does get away with it is that their customers, so far, are letting them.

It'd be interesting to see if a class action suit comes out of this.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

Yes, the quote was inaccurate. But here is the point I was making. Regardless of the real reason (the P issue), Amazon stated they removed the books due to a publisher's whim.

Did Amazon really say that, or was the article misquoting them? I don't know.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No they won't. Amazon have said that they have changed their systems so that the book will no longer be removed from peoples' devices in such a circumstance.

I wonder why they changed? Did Amazon's lawyers have a talk with the guys who run the kindle service?

[HarryT]

It has been reported that that is what Amazon's customer service team initially told customers who queried the reason for the deletion. I do not know whether or not those reports are true.

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by carld

The publisher didn't renege, the books were uploaded by someone who didn't have the rights, that's an entirely different thing.

As far as non-PD books, someone in another thread mentioned that they had books that the seller had removed from the Kindle store and they were still available for download from their account.

Yes, I know that, but you miss the point. Amazon claimed it was a publisher reneging, and pulled the books from the library/kindles. Therefore, in the event that a publisher really DID renege, Amazon has already said/proven they'd still do it.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Did Amazon really say that, or was the article misquoting them? I don't know.

I don't think it was a misquote. I think it was Amazon not really knowing the full reasons themselves, or hiding the fact that it was another PD fiasco.

It was actually quoted, so I highly doubt you're going to "quote your rendition of a paraphrase". But I very well could be mistaken

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

You're claiming that no kindles contain any eBooks, that all of the data is stored in Amazons server and never on the kindle?

C'mon, you're a bright guy... re-read my post.

I'm saying first and foremost, it is irrelevant where the data is stored. If you've already granted Amazon access to your device, it is legal for them to remove data. (They already do so, with default behavior for newspaper and magazine subscriptions.) And I was also trying to point out that many companies engage in the same types of data structures, with the same potential consequences (e.g. MMORPG's wiping your character).

Second, I'm pointing out that from a technical perspective, Amazon is not reaching out and scanning your device for unauthorized material. When you turn on Whispernet, it syncs data between what you have on your device (Kindle, iPhone) and what Amazon has on its servers. I.e. the change is actually executed on their servers.

Amazon deleted an entry in their databases; this in turn removed the book from the user's accounts. You turn on Whispernet, the data gets synced. New books show up, old newspapers get removed, bookmarks and "last page read" gets synced.

Since you are syncing your device with their databases, while again I can see the dislike for the process, I'm having a hard time seeing how this constitutes "unauthorized access."