Class action suit against Amazon (sign up here!) - Page 2

carld · 07-18-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

According to what law?

Not according to first sale principle.

In many countries if you buy something stolen in good faith it is yours to keep.

Not in the US where Amazon operates their store and where the books were sold. Amazon did the right and legal thing.

tompe · 07-18-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carld

Not in the US where Amazon operates their store and where the books were sold. Amazon did the right and legal thing.

You are claiming that. But other threads here says differently. The thing with property was only an example that good faith laws exists. But they cannot be generalized to intellectual property since other laws handle IP.

JSWolf · 07-18-2009, 10:53 AM

To prevent these issues from happening, Amazon should validate all eBooks uploaded before making them available for purchase. That way if any eBooks get sold that should not, it's only Amazon who's to be blamed for allowing it. As it is now, anyone can upload an illegal eBook and it gets out there for sale and then Amazon has to delete it. Also, we must not forget the illegal Harry Potter eBooks Amazon has had to delete.

As to the class action suit, Amazon would wipe the floor with you.

HarryT · 07-18-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

To prevent these issues from happening, Amazon should validate all eBooks uploaded before making them available for purchase.

Practically speaking, Jon, how could they do that? It's one thing to check whether or not a book is in the public domain, but if you find that it isn't, how are Amazon going to check whether or not the publisher has a legitimate right to distribute it? All they can realistically do is to get the uploader to declare that they have that right, and that is precisely what they currently do.

desertgrandma · 07-18-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmvasco

Before we get started, let me say something to all those who can see Amazon's point on this matter. You're wrong.

Taking all of these aspects into account, I think Amazon is due some punishment and their customers some compensation.

Get organized, ask for advice, fight it in the press, fight it in the courts, but get them to stop. And get some compensation out of them. May this thread be the first step towards a less dystopian future.

Disclaimer: I cannot legally own a Kindle, since I live in Europe, so I'll step aside to let our American friends once again fight for freedom and justice (and reap the rewards). Though I wouldn't mind 1% of the total amount paid in punitive and compensatory damages. Just kidding. Unless you're serious.

You don't live here, you dont' have a Kindle, and you have nothing invested. And, you wouldn't mind 1% of the damages as a 'reward' for your advice.

Sounds like an outside agitator who just wants to stir up trouble.

JSWolf · 07-18-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Practically speaking, Jon, how could they do that? It's one thing to check whether or not a book is in the public domain, but if you find that it isn't, how are Amazon going to check whether or not the publisher has a legitimate right to distribute it? All they can realistically do is to get the uploader to declare that they have that right, and that is precisely what they currently do.

True. But if Amazon was to legally go after the illegal uploaders, then maybe that sort of thing would stop.

tompe · 07-18-2009, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Practically speaking, Jon, how could they do that? It's one thing to check whether or not a book is in the public domain, but if you find that it isn't, how are Amazon going to check whether or not the publisher has a legitimate right to distribute it? All they can realistically do is to get the uploader to declare that they have that right, and that is precisely what they currently do.

But that is exactly what torrent sites do also. And when people complaining they remove the torrent. But I seem to remember you saying that it is wrong for a torrent site to behave as Amazon.

HarryT · 07-18-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

True. But if Amazon was to legally go after the illegal uploaders, then maybe that sort of thing would stop.

I would sincerely hope that they DO prosecute the illegal uploaders. Are you saying that they don't?

HarryT · 07-18-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

But that is exactly what torrent sites do also. And when people complaining they remove the torrent. But I seem to remember you saying that it is wrong for a torrent site to behave as Amazon.

So what would you suggest that they do, Tommy?

tompe · 07-18-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

So what would you suggest that they do, Tommy?

Eh, if they cannot sell books according to the laws then they have to lobby to change the law or stop selling books. I do not think I understand the question. I just pointed out that your opinions are not consistent.

What do you suggest that torrent sites do then since you have critized their behaviour? They cannot technically check all content either.

But I thought safe harbor laws was enough for this situation. And they do not require that you delete content from the people that have downloaded problematic files.

pilotbob · 07-18-2009, 12:49 PM

I hate to say this, but all any class action suit like this ever did was make a bunch of lawyers alot of money, that the company being sued usually had to pay which cause their expenses to go up and to rise their prices thus hurting the consumer.

Also, usually these things are settled and the customer gets some token coupon that doesn't really give them anything.

BOb

kacir · 07-18-2009, 02:14 PM

The Amazon is GUILTY.

I am not going to discuss if they could have known or should have known the book was uploaded to the store by an entity that did not have right to upload it.
I am not going to discuss whether Amazon should have deleted the book or purchase the rights, so customers that paid for the book in good faith could keep it.

I am talking about the fact that LOTS of people were very, very surprised that they do not own the book they think they *purchased*.
There is button labeled "Buy now".
Even the price of [most of the] books indicates that you are buying the book and not paying a fee in virtual library.

Amazon should have made it crystal clear that you are not buying the book in question but paying for the right to read it on a limited number of devices for limited time.
Amazon should have made it crystal clear that they can revoke your right to read the book you have paid for any time they fancy.
Amazon should have made it crystal clear that they have the right, the ability and the inclination to remotely delete any book they wish any time they wish from your device.
I wonder what happens to the notes you made in the book. I wonder what happens to your clippings. I am not sure this is explained somewhere.

I know there is the small print. But Amazon clearly did SOMETHING wrong when there are so many people that are surprised by this situation.

doreenjoy · 07-18-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I would sincerely hope that they DO prosecute the illegal uploaders. Are you saying that they don't?

On what grounds would Amazon prosecute illegal uploaders? All they are entitled to is the funds that Amazon refunded. The author (who owns the copyright) and the publisher who currently has the electronic publication rights are the only ones who could pursue any kind of action, and believe me, it is never worth it.

On another note: regardless of what posters here are saying in defense of Amazon, they have a PR nightmare on their hands with this situation. It'll be interesting (to me at least) to see when they finally realize they need to spin the corporate response.

carld · 07-18-2009, 02:19 PM

>The Amazon is GUILTY.

Amazon did nothing wrong and isn't guilty of anything.

whitearrow · 07-18-2009, 03:46 PM

A few points.

1) Amazon can't "prosecute" the uploaders as they are not the government. Only the government can "prosecute" someone for a crime. Amazon has no standing to civilly sue the uploaders for copyright infringement, as they are not the owners of the copyrights. At best, the uploaders breached an agreement with Amazon, and Amazon could sue for breach of contract. It's probably not worth their time to do so.

2) Innocently possessing stolen property is not a crime, even if stolen property laws applied to intellectual property, and to date I'm unaware of any case where that has happened.

3) A class action suit would be a waste of time as nobody suffered any monetary damages, and arguing that injunctive relief should be granted would be idiotic in this case. You would basically be asking a court for an order saying that Amazon cannot remove copyrighted material that was uploaded illegally. No court would grant such an order.

07-18-2009, 02:14 PM	#27
kacir Wizard Posts: 3,463 Karma: 10684861 Join Date: May 2006 Device: PocketBook 360, before it was Sony Reader, cassiopeia A-20	The Amazon is GUILTY. The Amazon is GUILTY. I am not going to discuss if they could have known or should have known the book was uploaded to the store by an entity that did not have right to upload it. I am not going to discuss whether Amazon should have deleted the book or purchase the rights, so customers that paid for the book in good faith could keep it. I am talking about the fact that LOTS of people were very, very surprised that they do not own the book they think they purchased. There is button labeled "Buy now". Even the price of [most of the] books indicates that you are buying the book and not paying a fee in virtual library. Amazon should have made it crystal clear that you are not buying the book in question but paying for the right to read it on a limited number of devices for limited time. Amazon should have made it crystal clear that they can revoke your right to read the book you have paid for any time they fancy. Amazon should have made it crystal clear that they have the right, the ability and the inclination to remotely delete any book they wish any time they wish from your device. I wonder what happens to the notes you made in the book. I wonder what happens to your clippings. I am not sure this is explained somewhere. I know there is the small print. But Amazon clearly did SOMETHING wrong when there are so many people that are surprised by this situation. Last edited by kacir; 07-18-2009 at 02:18 PM.

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07-18-2009, 10:53 AM	#18
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,796 Karma: 146391129 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	To prevent these issues from happening, Amazon should validate all eBooks uploaded before making them available for purchase. That way if any eBooks get sold that should not, it's only Amazon who's to be blamed for allowing it. As it is now, anyone can upload an illegal eBook and it gets out there for sale and then Amazon has to delete it. Also, we must not forget the illegal Harry Potter eBooks Amazon has had to delete. As to the class action suit, Amazon would wipe the floor with you.

07-18-2009, 12:49 PM	#26
pilotbob Grand Sorcerer Posts: 19,832 Karma: 11844413 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tampa, FL USA Device: Kindle Touch	I hate to say this, but all any class action suit like this ever did was make a bunch of lawyers alot of money, that the company being sued usually had to pay which cause their expenses to go up and to rise their prices thus hurting the consumer. Also, usually these things are settled and the customer gets some token coupon that doesn't really give them anything. BOb

07-18-2009, 02:19 PM	#29
carld Wizard Posts: 2,698 Karma: 4748723 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Kindle Paperwhite	>The Amazon is GUILTY. Amazon did nothing wrong and isn't guilty of anything.

07-18-2009, 03:46 PM	#30
whitearrow Guru Posts: 808 Karma: 2260766 Join Date: Apr 2008 Device: Kindle Oasis 2	A few points. 1) Amazon can't "prosecute" the uploaders as they are not the government. Only the government can "prosecute" someone for a crime. Amazon has no standing to civilly sue the uploaders for copyright infringement, as they are not the owners of the copyrights. At best, the uploaders breached an agreement with Amazon, and Amazon could sue for breach of contract. It's probably not worth their time to do so. 2) Innocently possessing stolen property is not a crime, even if stolen property laws applied to intellectual property, and to date I'm unaware of any case where that has happened. 3) A class action suit would be a waste of time as nobody suffered any monetary damages, and arguing that injunctive relief should be granted would be idiotic in this case. You would basically be asking a court for an order saying that Amazon cannot remove copyrighted material that was uploaded illegally. No court would grant such an order.