Chinese Kindle clone: Meet WeFound

[Stensie4JC]

Originally Posted by ProDigit

At least, I've been able to learn 3 languages before the age of 18, rather than becoming 30 something before I fully mastered one language.
I agree that any language can become so complex as you want it to be,and that one can study poetry and stuff many years after one graduates. But I certainly hope that Chinese kids at the age of 7 can write just about anything they can talk about using a keyboard?

This was awhile ago, but I'd like to respond to it anyway. Chinese people are considered to have mastered the essential vocabulary when the graduate from high school. Though they are still learning how to write characters in high school, I don't think it's much different than high school students in the US learning new vocabulary words. The only difference is that in China whenever you learn a new word you have to learn how to write it. Instead of having spelling tests, they have tests on how to write the characters. OMHO I think the complexity of English grammar balances out the complexity of the Chinese writing system.

Because Chinese has so many homonyms it would be impossible to replace it with pinyin. But the greater challenge is that China (the mainland in particular) is very ethnocentric and is unlikely to give up Hanzi, which is a central part of it's identity. I can't remember who said so, but someone said that China's cultural persona is a reflection of the state of it's language, which is something I very much agree with. Furthermore, there's no chance (again, OMHO) that China will give up Hanzi for a writing system developed abroad...and in this case, abroad would include Taiwan.

It's related to the topic of non-Chinese people writing books about "the evils of kanji/hanzi." Ethnocentrism tells the Chinese that "no matter how well educated you are, you can't really grasp our language. The fact that you are writing this book is proof that you don't understand." It's not logical, I know. The other reason books about Chinese by non-Chinese might be less well received is, well, you wouldn't want someone to come into your house and tell you how to raise your kids, would you? Changes to Chinese on the mainland will have to originate on the mainland to be accepted.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

And for Hanyu Pinyin's usability as a language replacement...there were some publications done entirely in pinyin with some degree of effectiveness, but solidarity is limited. Your example of Xi'an ignores the use of apostrophes that are conventionally used to distinguish the characters. Tones can also be represented over the dominant final, though I am too lazy to work them up.

They should write Xi'an, but usually they don't, even at airports I have seen that. No sign on the freeway ever is with the apostrophy. You see signs such as "Baihuogongshi" in PinYin everywhere. And no tonal marks in sight, usually because the English keyboard layout makes no provisions for them, is my guess. Pin-Yin could be done well, but I have never seen that, except in textbooks for foreigners!

The phonetic mess for street signs in Taipei, of course, are a different story. A matter of politics, more than anything else. A matter of Taiwanese pride.

To make my final assessment on this matter, Chinese are doing quite well with the Hanzi characters. The system does have its advantages, even though the learning curve is much steeper. Today's technology makes using Hanzi much easier, even for Chinese and their children. They will not switch in the foreseeable future.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by ahi

essary.

Do Chinese / Japanese people not find entire books written by foreigners about why the Chinese/Japanese are fools not to convert to the superior latin alphabet somewhat offensive, or at least arrogant?

- Ahi

I would suspect that Chinese actually would find such writings amusing. Especially those that stress the "unimagineable difficulties".

A funny thing, too, are cultural sensibilities. In HK all foreigners are routinely called "鬼老". That literally means "old ghost", more accurately translated as "foreign devil". Even customers in a store, you stand there at the counter ask for the something and the sales person yells to someone else in the back: "Hey, this foreign devil wants those shoes in size 8, do we have any left?". Everybody uses it and HK people feel calling foreigners this way is alright. They do it in Cantonese, of course, but I know enough to understand that. I do find it offensive. And imagine such usage in the US! Talk about political correctness. This is limited to HK and parts of Guangdong province, though.

Also some Chinese tend to laugh at foreigners speaking Chinese. Something that would be considered insensitive to the extreme in the West. And there is the old saying: "天不怕，地不怕, 怕外國人講中國話!" Don't fear heaven, don't fear earth (hell), fear foreigners speaking Chinese!

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Stensie4JC

Furthermore, there's no chance (again, OMHO) that China will give up Hanzi for a writing system developed abroad...and in this case, abroad would include Taiwan.

You are definitely right on the money with this one. Chinese nationalism at this point is extremely fierce. And it is strongly encouraged by the government in order to promote a sense of "oneness" for such a big country with such a diverse population. There are so many local languages, and even among the Han, it is easy to tell people from different provinces apart just by looking at facial features, for people from many provinces I have about an 80% accuracy.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

As far as grammar is concerned, many features are present in "proper" Mandarin, but are casually ignored. A good example of this is the difference between the present perfect and present perfect progressive tenses, which many foreigners incorrectly believe don't exist in Chinese, and most Chinese subsequently fail to notice as well.

That is the first I have heard about this. Can you give an example? Anyway, tenses do not exist in modern Chinese. Past tense is indicated by the addition of some word like before, yesterday, 過 guo, 了 le (both of which indicate that the event is over), only.

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

That is the first I have heard about this. Can you give an example? Anyway, tenses do not exist in modern Chinese. Past tense is indicated by the addition of some word like before, yesterday, 過 guo, 了 le (both of which indicate that the event is over), only.

Let me dredge up an example.
你學中文學了多久? How long have you studied Chinese? present perfect
你學中文學了多久了? How long have you been studying Chinese? present perfect continuous/progressive

I should add that there's not much to define more precisely the past and future tenses, which are implied by indicating a time reference, rather than through adjusting a functional tense word as in English. Integration of time is mostly additive and modular, which makes it much more optional than it is in languages which modify the internal structure to accommodate for time. This lends the impression that the time values don't really exist, and people who interpret the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in some funky ways end up thinking it means Chinese people don't know anything about linear time.

The distinction is often ignored in conventional use, since most people just stick with the simpler form. I've always felt that Chinese grammar rules linger behind curtains that few people worry about because communicative function and grammatical accuracy have a much weaker bond in Chinese than they do in English and many other languages.

Of course, there are components to English grammar that are often ignored or improperly used by convention, though the rules exist (one example that springs to mind is the distinction between "who" and "whom". How many people correctly use "whom" in English communication without sounding contrived?). Even as people learn their grammar adequately, they rarely think about it enough to identify it. Most English teachers for instance here in Taiwan know very little about their own grammar until they see it defined for them in books that they teach. If I had a dime for every time someone answered a grammar or vocabulary question with "uh...it just sounds better"....

[HansTWN]

Oh, 了 LE is being used all the time. Well, you can argue either way here. I, personally, wouldn't really call it a GRAMMATICAL past tense, since only the presence of a single word turns it into past tense. Just like European languages have only remnants of tonality (tick and teak would be an example of tonal variations of the same word in English), this past tense is very, very rudimentary. Nothing changes, just a word indicates past or future. Compare adding a simple LE 了or GUO 過 to what the Germans are doing -- 5 different verb forms for each tense! As far as I am aware, in your example, the 了 only tells you that it is in the past, it is the rest of the sentence (learning being an ongoing process) that makes it clear that it is continuing into the present. Seems the present perfect is inferred rather than expressed through a grammatical construction. If you say "我去過了" "I have been there", then no relationship to the present is established with the very same structure. Of course, in Chinese you are able to get that same meaning accross without all that structural baggage! Anyway, I am no linguist, so I am just expressing my thoughts on this.

And I think grammar is best learned through reading, rather than memorizing the rules. Who has time to think about rules when speaking a language? It must come naturally to you, a simple feeling that something is right or wrong, even if you cannot recite the rule. Though a teacher should know it!

[krischik]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

Are there no other cell carriers in Germany? What if Amazon bought part of one of the smaller ones, they could still get there. Where there's will there's a way.

Yes, last I counted there where 4 - but those are the bigger one. I guess Amazon has to start from scratch with there negotiations. That will take time by which Sony with it's old PRS 505 will have taken the marked already. You find Sony's in any book store in Germany and Switzerland.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

So Amazon can readily produce an unlocked GSM or WiFi version of K2 at the drop of a hat.

The real hangups are the back-end services, book catalog, and certification.

But that is not Amazons business strategy. Amazon want vendor lock it. If they did not they would have capitalized on Mobipocket instead. Which all ready has all the back end services and catalogues for Germany (but without vendor lock in).

Martin

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by ahi

Do Chinese / Japanese people not find entire books written by foreigners about why the Chinese/Japanese are fools not to convert to the superior latin alphabet somewhat offensive, or at least arrogant?

I think they mostly find it amuzing. However, there are some Japanese that consider switching to romaji to be a good idea:
http://www.age.ne.jp/x/nrs/

BTW, Japanese has three writing systems compared to Chinese's one... so it must be enven harder to learn.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by igorsk

I think they mostly find it amuzing. However, there are some Japanese that consider switching to romaji to be a good idea:
http://www.age.ne.jp/x/nrs/

BTW, Japanese has three writing systems compared to Chinese's one... so it must be enven harder to learn.

Well, this has been discussed extensively in the "How to learn a foreign language" thread. For the Japanese language a switch would be easier than for Chinese.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

(tick and teak would be an example of tonal variations of the same word in English)

Tonal variation? Does tick not have a short vowel, whereas teak has a long vowel?

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by igorsk

I think they mostly find it amuzing. However, there are some Japanese that consider switching to romaji to be a good idea:
http://www.age.ne.jp/x/nrs/

BTW, Japanese has three writing systems compared to Chinese's one... so it must be enven harder to learn.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that it is generally agreed that Japanese is easier for westerners to learn than Chinese.

Two of its writing systems are largely (if not completely) phonetic, therefore not greatly more difficult to learn than a regular alphabet. And the use of Kanji in Japanese is more limited the use of Hanzi in Chinese, meaning that you really can read most written materials after learning only about 2000 - 6000 characters (please correct me as to the actual number, if I am wrong)... since things not written with those specific characters would be written with the phonetic writing systems.

Also, since all three writing systems are fairly distinct looking, there is little likelihood of confusing them for one another.

Oh, and Japanese doesn't have tones either.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

In HK all foreigners are routinely called "鬼老". That literally means "old ghost", more accurately translated as "foreign devil".

How does "old ghost" become "foreign devil"? Isn't it something more like "ancient wraith" (i.e.: evil ghost from earlier ages)?

I've not a clue, so just trying to understand. To me "old ghost" and "foreign devil" are rather far apart semantically.

- Ahi

[LDBoblo]

Originally Posted by ahi

How does "old ghost" become "foreign devil"? Isn't it something more like "ancient wraith" (i.e.: evil ghost from earlier ages)?

I've not a clue, so just trying to understand. To me "old ghost" and "foreign devil" are rather far apart semantically.

- Ahi

It's not really, it's actually 鬼佬, in which the ghost concept used to just suggest white skin or pale hair iirc, and the lao/lo is "fellow". It's not particularly negative, but I suppose most slurs do not contain inherent insult from a linguistic perspective.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by LDBoblo

It's not really, it's actually 鬼佬, in which the ghost concept used to just suggest white skin or pale hair iirc, and the lao/lo is "fellow". It's not particularly negative, but I suppose most slurs do not contain inherent insult from a linguistic perspective.

Ok, so it's the attitudal component (is that a word/phrase?) that makes "foreign devil" a more appropriate translation?

- Ahi