Re-selling DRMed ebooks: Legal or not?

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's much more down to the fact that, whereas with a pBook, you have to consciously make a copy of it if you wish to have one (eg by scanning it or photocopying it), with an eBook multiple copies automatically exist as a part of the normal mechanism of use, and the typical computer user probably doesn't have the knowledge to eradicate all those copies.

How much would the law actually require you to do in terms of "deleting" your book if you wanted to give it someone else or sell it? Flush your web cache? Physically destroy any backup DVDs you may have made? Use a secure deletion tool to overwrite it on the physical disk? I don't know the answer to those questions - do you?

IMHO
The purpose of the law, at least in my country, is not to control every single bit of information in your computer. It's just to have just one person owning the e-book at a time.
Even if it's in the web cache and stays there, where's the problem? What's the difference between "nobody will ever see it", and "it does not exist" in this case?
As long as the book is read by one single reader (actually 4 of them, with Mobipocket) it should be fine wiith every copyright holder!
I know that one can retrieve the file from the cache, but he can also upload it on a Kindle and use the reader as a weapon to kill his wife...

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's much more down to the fact that, whereas with a pBook, you have to consciously make a copy of it if you wish to have one (eg by scanning it or photocopying it), with an eBook multiple copies automatically exist as a part of the normal mechanism of use, and the typical computer user probably doesn't have the knowledge to eradicate all those copies.

You don't think the typical computer user knows how to delete a file?

How much would the law actually require you to do in terms of "deleting" your book if you wanted to give it someone else or sell it? Flush your web cache? Physically destroy any backup DVDs you may have made? Use a secure deletion tool to overwrite it on the physical disk? I don't know the answer to those questions - do you?

If you have backups, then yes, either get rid of them or give them to the buyer. How many people do you know that actually burn DVD backups of their eBooks? Obviously not your "typical computer user". You don't need a "secure deletion tool" in order to delete a file. Is it theoretically possible to use computer forensic techniques to restore files that have been deleted in the OS but not physically overwritten... probably. Just don't restore them.

As I said, you obviously are trying to create ways that it would be possible to violate copyright. None of this is relevant to the discussion of whether it's legal/possible to sell eBooks. Giving someone a file without keeping a copy for yourself is really not that difficult.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

You don't think the typical computer user knows how to delete a file?

I think that the typical computer user probably thinks that clicking the "Delete" button really does delete the file - ie physically wipe it from the disk. You and I both know that this is not the case. My question is whether doing this is sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the law.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

if the ability to re-sell an ebook is dependent upon there being no other copies of that ebook held by the seller, it is very pertinent to ask to what lengths the seller has to go to in order to ensure that this is the case.

It is trivial. I'm sorry you do not know how to successfully delete a file. I would assume most people do. Deleting a backup (which most people probably wouldn't have anyway), clearing a browser, closing an application that you had on the desktop which had the file open... You can keep coming up with things to add to that list, but none of them are really that big of a deal and something that are easy to do.

You can list ways that it is possible to keep a copy for yourself all you want. They are irrelevant to the general question of whether or not it is legal to sell eBooks. You are focusing on HOW to sell an eBook, not whether you CAN.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

It is trivial. I'm sorry you do not know how to successfully delete a file. I would assume most people do.

Shaggy,

It is having been an IT professional for more years than I care to remember that makes me all too painfully aware of just how damned hard it really is to "delete" information from a hard disk. If you think that it is "trivial", then I most respectfully invite you to do a little more research into the subject. You will find that it is distinctly non-trivial, I assure you.

I work for a company which routinely deals with highly confidential information, and believe me, "clicking the delete button" doesn't cut it if you actually want to wipe the data.

[Elfwreck]

If I have a physical textbook, and I make photocopies of most or all of it for a class, and highlight & mark up the copy, that's legal fair use in the US. If I later sell the original, that's legal too; if I've forgotten where I put the marked-up copy, that doesn't mean I can't sell the original.

The quality of digital copies in comparison to physical copies isn't addressed by the law. Some copying is legal; retention of legal copies after selling the original is also legal. (Or at least, has never been prosecuted or sued for, AFAIK.) Certainly nobody's going to sue over *unintentional, unused* digital copies.

Copies made with the intent of selling the original would be a different situation.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Shaggy,

It is having been an IT professional for more years than I care to remember that makes me all too painfully aware of just how damned hard it really is to "delete" information from a hard disk. If you think that it is "trivial", then I most respectfully invite you to do a little more research into the subject. You will find that it is distinctly non-trivial, I assure you.

I work for a company which routinely deals with highly confidential information, and believe me, "clicking the delete button" doesn't cut it if you actually want to wipe the data.

As I've said. Whether or not it's possible to recover the data off of the hard drive is irrelevant. Delete the file and click on "Empty trash can". Is it possible to recover the bits off of the physical platters in the drive. Yeah, probably. Just don't do that.

You are still hung up on HOW, but the HOW doesn't matter. It is absolutely possible to get rid of a file. How you do it and to what lengths you are required to do it are irrelevant. You're discussing the procedure that would be required to sell an eBook, not whether you can sell it.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, it's most certainly not a "red herring", as you call it. Copyright law is all about the making of copies (by definition!), and if the ability to re-sell an ebook is dependent upon there being no other copies of that ebook held by the seller, it is very pertinent to ask to what lengths the seller has to go to in order to ensure that this is the case. I do not know what the answer to that question is.

Of course it is a red herring. While you own a pbook it's perfectly within your rights to copy that book, whether it's laborious or not.
If I were so inclined, I could also pay my 5yo nephew to stand at a copier all day and do it, or pay the local copy shop owner to do it, or even just scan the book myself, run it through OCR, and format shift it to smithereens. All this is legal.
And time issues aside, the "copying" is trivial (if boring). And if I subsequently decide to sell my original book, I still have the right to keep this copy, under current legislation. There is no difference in kind here.
Similarly, one might argue (for the legalistic heck of it) that a format-shifted title should be different enough from the original not to count as a copy anymore, but as something akin to an unbound paper copy of a pbook.

Regardless, and summarizing most of your posts in this thread: you are presuming guilt, while in most democracies the legal system (mind you, this entity is still quite different from the RIAA etc.) presumes innocence. Furthermore, you live in a democracy (which, at other times, I suspect you're quite happy with), so I would suggest you learn to live with this presumption. Legislation written with the "fact" in mind that everyone really is a criminal waiting to happen, is legislation that presumes a police state, which is something I will pass on.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Legislation written with the "fact" in mind that everyone really is a criminal waiting to happen, is legislation that presumes a police state, which is something I will pass on.

Given Harry's feelings on copyright, a "copyright police" state might be something he'd be in favor of.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Of course it is a red herring. While you own a pbook it's perfectly within your rights to copy that book, whether it's laborious or not.

I am within my rights to copy one chapter of a book, or one article from a magazine. That is what British law defines as "fair use". Copying an entire book is not fair use, and is a copyright violation (where I live).

And if I subsequently decide to sell my original book, I still have the right to keep this copy, under current legislation.

Really? That does surprise me, I must say. So you can buy a CD, make a copy of it, and then sell the original, while keeping the copy yourself? I'm pretty sure that I couldn't legally do that in the UK. In fact I know I couldn't, since I couldn't legally copy the CD in the first place.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think that the typical computer user probably thinks that clicking the "Delete" button really does delete the file - ie physically wipe it from the disk.

There could be a case for suing the OS creators for not making the "Delete" button really delete things, then. (But it's not the user's fault, the user has no need to be aware of that and, besides, whether or not "delete" does delete things is irrelevant for the legality of selling ebooks.)

Isn't there some regulation saying that a "stand by" button should not be labelled "power off"? How would users react if "log out" at a cash dispenser would not really log out, but just let you take your credit card and stay logged in so that the next person coming in can easily withdraw cash from you account? Are consumers to blame if they dispose of their used batteries in the appropriate containers, but then the company in charge of the containers just dumps them in the garbage can?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I am within my rights to copy one chapter of a book, or one article from a magazine. That is what British law defines as "fair use". Copying an entire book is not fair use, and is a copyright violation (where I live).

Copies for personal use are not a violation. At least, not here. Given the UK version where copies are not allowed at all, are you sure you're not breaking copyright law just by backing up an eBook? Sounds like the UK law needs to be fixed.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Copies for personal use are not a violation. At least, not here. Given the UK version where copies are not allowed at all, are you sure you're not breaking copyright law just by backing up an eBook? Sounds like the UK law needs to be fixed.

It does indeed very badly need to be fixed. There is a proposal, which has the backing of the British Phonographic Industry, to legalise the backing up and format shifting of CDs, etc, and that would presumably also apply to eBooks.

I knew that making a personal copy of a book was permitted in the US, but I'm really surprised to hear from zerospinboson that one is permitted to retain the copy after selling the original.

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It does indeed very badly need to be fixed. There is a proposal, which has the backing of the British Phonographic Industry, to legalise the backing up and format shifting of CDs, etc, and that would presumably also apply to eBooks.

I knew that making a personal copy of a book was permitted in the US, but I'm really surprised to hear from zerospinboson that one is permitted to retain the copy after selling the original.

Since there is no "original" file, I wonder what happens if someone sells the second copy also...



I'm pretty sure he breaks the law almost everywhere...



After all these pages about it, I'm sure that "copy"right for digital media is a nonsense.
In the digital world, a "per copy"-based business is definitely untenable. There's no way to efficiently control "copies". And to try to make laws to enforce it it's too dangerous...

[Format C:]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It does indeed very badly need to be fixed. There is a proposal, which has the backing of the British Phonographic Industry, to legalise the backing up and format shifting of CDs, etc, and that would presumably also apply to eBooks.

I knew that making a personal copy of a book was permitted in the US, but I'm really surprised to hear from zerospinboson that one is permitted to retain the copy after selling the original.

Am I misunderstantig or as for now it's illegal in UK to sync CD's to an iPod?