Amazon applying for in-book advertisement patent for Kindle - Page 4

Shaggy · 07-07-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

Well Amazon is already subsidizing the price of its eBooks and the reader to push for market share, why would they further increase their losses by giving a subsidy on the price of ebooks with ads? They may work it in slowly but I think they believe this will be a viable alternative for their already "low" prices for ebooks. They need to figure out a way to get margins for eBooks up and adding Ad revenues on top of what the consumer pays is the best way to do it from a business stand point. Theres a risk that people will revolt but it depends on how blatantly the ads are placed in the books.

That's my suspicion as well. The Ad revenue will be in addition to sales revenue, not a replacement for part of it. Whether or not they can pull it off without angering their customers will just be a matter of how well they spin it.

They're probably not going to say they're adding Ads without lowering the current price. But they might say that all of the prices are going up, except for the ones with Ads in them. That makes it sound more like the customer is getting a better deal. Put it in a commercial with a cute gimmick, and the next thing you know a lot of customers will be convinced that they're saving money with the new "experience enhancement" technology.

junkyardwillie · 07-07-2009, 12:51 PM

With this I'm glad I don't have a Kindle but it'll be interesting to see how they incorporate it. People really hate ads, look what Tivo is doing to TV now that everyone can just fast forward through commercials. I can't imagine reading a novel and all of a sudden an ad pops up when I flip the page (I'm thinking incorporated similar to a comic book) it would break the whole flow of the book. You have to have an ad concept that draws attention or no one will pay for the space, the other way would be as someone else suggested that there is an ad that pops up before you can read your book, at that point I think people would just put their readers down. Amazon's got to figure out a way to get paid with these eBooks so I'm waiting to see what they come up with.

Kali Yuga · 07-07-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junkyardwillie

Amazon's got to figure out a way to get paid with these eBooks so I'm waiting to see what they come up with.

Again, they already have. It's called "selling e-books for around $10/each."

The Kindle does not use the iPod model (cheap content to encourage people to buy the hardware). They make money when they sell an e-book, with the exception of some best-sellers -- which, in both paper and electronic form, are apparently loss leaders. That's why Amazon has the iPhone Kindle App and plans to make similar apps for other mobile devices.

And to repeat: ad revenues would be miniscule. There is no way they could collect even 50¢ per book without utterly decimating the user experience, and they are far too smart to do that. However much you dislike Amazon, it's pretty clear that they understand the critical nature of a smooth user experience: e.g. one-click purchases, navigatable website, buying e-books right from the device, avoiding clunky software to add books to your Kindle etc.

Hence it is far more likely that they would use this to put 1 or 2 ads for other books at the start and/or end of an e-book... just like they do in paper books right now. That is, if they ever implement it at all.

Elfwreck · 07-07-2009, 05:36 PM

It would open the market for competing ebook sellers to advertise their books as "Ad-Free, not like Amazon!" Right now, some of them say "no DRM!" or "ePub format!" However, the general public is oblivious to DRM, and only knows that multiple filetypes are confusing; they don't recognize those as useful features.

But they know ads, and don't like them. Ebook readers --casual ebook readers, not the swarm of fanatics we have here-- will be receptive to a message of "our books don't have ads" in ways they're not open to the message "our books are well-programmed & don't have weird software attachments."

Amazon could be shooting themselves in the foot, here.

emellaich · 07-07-2009, 10:48 PM

I am repeating myself, but ads won't be too objectionable if they are used to help me.

If you enjoyed reading this: click here to buy the next book in the series.

griffonwing · 07-08-2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emellaich

I am repeating myself, but ads won't be too objectionable if they are used to help me.

If you enjoyed reading this: click here to buy the next book in the series.

We can only hope that this is what the plans are for. But knowing the type of companies out there, better to fear the worst and be pleasantly surprised than to assume the best and be disgusted.

Shaggy · 07-08-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Again, they already have. It's called "selling e-books for around $10/each."

The Kindle does not use the iPod model (cheap content to encourage people to buy the hardware).

Cheap is a relative term. Have you compared prices for the Kindle version of an eBook with other versions of the same book? In many cases, the Kindle ones are much cheaper. That leaves three basic explanations that I can think of:

1) Amazon is taking a cut on their profit margin in order to increase the kindle market.
2) All the other eBook sellers are grossly inflating their prices.
3) Amazon has special deals worked out with Publishers to get rights to the eBooks at lower prices.

My bet is on #1.

chaznsc · 07-08-2009, 01:05 PM

I'm going to apply for a patent on applying for stupid patents. That should cut down on a lot of this crap, or make me rich.

Teyrnon · 07-08-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaznsc

I'm going to apply for a patent on applying for stupid patents. That should cut down on a lot of this crap, or make me rich.

Seems like you'd be up against too much prior art with that one.

Kali Yuga · 07-08-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Amazon is taking a cut on their profit margin in order to increase the kindle market.

I'm afraid to say that you are completely incorrect.

Bezos has already publicly stated that the Kindle Reader and Kindle Books are treated as two separate business units, that one does not subsidize the other, and both turn a profit.

That's one reason why the Reader is expensive -- and why they are making an effort to put Kindle Books onto more mobile devices. As far as they're concerned, a Kindle iPhone app doesn't cannibalize their business model; it extends their reach. (Also, Bezos presumes that the target audience for the Kindle, which are the people who buy 15 or more books a year, will still want a dedicated e-reader.)

There are already a few threads discussing this:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...ighlight=bezos
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49173

From what I have gathered, Amazon is paying the standard wholesale price for the books. If it's a best-seller, then just like paper books, it's a loss-leader. Remember, with an e-book they are getting half the savings -- no shipping to or from the warehouse and no losses on "free shipping," no inventory costs, no physical returns.

It is also possible that, given their clout, they do in fact get better pricing than some other retailers and/or can resist pricing pressure better. Sony or Mobipocket are not major retailers and do not have much, if any, leverage over publishers. Even Google, an Internet powerhouse by any standard, is going to let publishers set prices (at least initially) for their e-book effort.

And again, the revenues from advertising would be puny -- nowhere near enough to subsidize anything. A typical static banner ad on a web page gets maybe 50¢ per 1,000 page views. A book with even $2 worth of advertising would be completely unreadable.

Greg Anos · 07-08-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...ighlight=bezos
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49173

...

And again, the revenues from advertising would be puny -- nowhere near enough to subsidize anything. A typical static banner ad on a web page gets maybe 50¢ per 1,000 page views. A book with even $2 worth of advertising would be completely unreadable.

Well, as my old buddies in the oil business would say, let's run a log on it. Let's see - an ad at the end of every chapter, say 20 chapters a book... 20 ads. Say 20 views per book. A penny a book. 1000 / 20 = 50 /50c = 1c. But how many books do e-book readers read? I'll say 50. So that's 50c a reader per year. Pretty low. On the other hand, prime time TV is getting at least $10,000 a minute for ads. Would Pepsi (for example) pays 50c a viewer for a years worth of ads (and that's a 1000 view year)? Or $500,000 for a million readers (which is 50 prime time ads (or less))? You aggregate this up, and who knows? Think of all the money spent on giveaway contests. I'm not so certain that this might not become a modest but continuing advertising market.

Shaggy · 07-09-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Bezos has already publicly stated that the Kindle Reader and Kindle Books are treated as two separate business units, that one does not subsidize the other, and both turn a profit.

Increasing the kindle market does not mean that they are subsidizing the reader. Taking a loss on kindle books can be done to increase the market share of the book selling business unit.

Quote:

From what I have gathered, Amazon is paying the standard wholesale price for the books. If it's a best-seller, then just like paper books, it's a loss-leader.

Isn't that what I said? "loss-leader" = "taking a cut on their profit margin in order to increase the kindle market".

It's more than just best-sellers though.

Quote:

Remember, with an e-book they are getting half the savings -- no shipping to or from the warehouse and no losses on "free shipping," no inventory costs, no physical returns.

It's the same with the other eBook retailers. We're not comparing prices of kindle eBooks to printed books. We're comparing kindle eBooks to other eBooks. They both have the same distribution cost reductions, yet the kindle eBooks are often much cheaper.

Quote:

It is also possible that, given their clout, they do in fact get better pricing than some other retailers and/or can resist pricing pressure better

Amazon has more clout with publishers than somebody like Barnes and Nobles?

catsittingstill · 07-13-2009, 11:52 AM

Ads *in* books--bleagh. The first time I see one I'll be on the phone to Amazon Customer Service, returning the book and getting my money back

Ads for similar books at the end of books, of the sort one sometimes sees in science fiction paperbacks ("If you enjoyed this book you may also like Mirror Dance by Lois McMaster Bujold; click here to sample the first chapters")--sure, okay.

But not non-book stuff, and not in the margins, for Pete's sake! No--not even for a discount. Not even in free books. Just...no.

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07-07-2009, 12:51 PM	#47
junkyardwillie Addict Posts: 316 Karma: 570 Join Date: Apr 2008 Device: Onyx Note Pro, Kobo H20 and iPad	With this I'm glad I don't have a Kindle but it'll be interesting to see how they incorporate it. People really hate ads, look what Tivo is doing to TV now that everyone can just fast forward through commercials. I can't imagine reading a novel and all of a sudden an ad pops up when I flip the page (I'm thinking incorporated similar to a comic book) it would break the whole flow of the book. You have to have an ad concept that draws attention or no one will pay for the space, the other way would be as someone else suggested that there is an ad that pops up before you can read your book, at that point I think people would just put their readers down. Amazon's got to figure out a way to get paid with these eBooks so I'm waiting to see what they come up with.

07-07-2009, 05:36 PM	#49
Elfwreck Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,187 Karma: 25133758 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)	It would open the market for competing ebook sellers to advertise their books as "Ad-Free, not like Amazon!" Right now, some of them say "no DRM!" or "ePub format!" However, the general public is oblivious to DRM, and only knows that multiple filetypes are confusing; they don't recognize those as useful features. But they know ads, and don't like them. Ebook readers --casual ebook readers, not the swarm of fanatics we have here-- will be receptive to a message of "our books don't have ads" in ways they're not open to the message "our books are well-programmed & don't have weird software attachments." Amazon could be shooting themselves in the foot, here.

07-07-2009, 10:48 PM	#50
emellaich Wizard Posts: 1,101 Karma: 4388403 Join Date: Oct 2007 Device: Palm>Ebookman>IPaq>Axim>Cybook>Kndl2>IPAD>Kndl3SO>Voyager>Oasis	I am repeating myself, but ads won't be too objectionable if they are used to help me. If you enjoyed reading this: click here to buy the next book in the series.

07-08-2009, 01:05 PM	#53
chaznsc Connoisseur Posts: 70 Karma: 32 Join Date: Jul 2009 Device: Mine	I'm going to apply for a patent on applying for stupid patents. That should cut down on a lot of this crap, or make me rich.

07-13-2009, 11:52 AM	#58
catsittingstill Guru Posts: 643 Karma: 551634 Join Date: Dec 2007 Device: Kindle 1.0.8, iPod Touch, Kindle Keyboard	Ads in books--bleagh. The first time I see one I'll be on the phone to Amazon Customer Service, returning the book and getting my money back Ads for similar books at the end of books, of the sort one sometimes sees in science fiction paperbacks ("If you enjoyed this book you may also like Mirror Dance by Lois McMaster Bujold; click here to sample the first chapters")--sure, okay. But not non-book stuff, and not in the margins, for Pete's sake! No--not even for a discount. Not even in free books. Just...no.