Vegetarian?

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Icarusbop

I eat meat and always will.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I don't 'get' vegetarians at all.


Rubbish, we are designed to eat meat, hence the canine teeth for tearing meat.

So what. We are also designed to reproduce. Some live a happier life not reproducing.

The interesting thing is whether you live healthier as a vegetarian than as a meat-eater. The few studies conducted in this area seems to indicate so although they are not conclusive. A lot of life-style diseases could be greatly reduced if people were vegetarians (or didn't eat as much meat as they do) fx obesity.

Moral ground: There isn't any really, animals are there to be eaten ( 'if we aren't supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?') I'm prettry certain Lions or(insert big predator of your choice here) doesn't go on much of a guilt trip when they get to eat people... - sure it would be nice to have all the hens, sheep, pigs (etc.) running around in fields but they don't (for various reasons) and not eating meat because of it's history does not make you morally better IMO.

I agree. I don't feel sorry for the animal being eaten.

Helth reasons: I thought only have too much red meat was a health issue and 'meats' like chicken and fish can be very healthy (unless cooked in butter and covered with sauces... yum).

Chicken are healthier.

Exploiting animals: yeah well, that just tough - that happens when another organism is at the top (or very close) of the food chain. No guilt there either.

Well I'd like to differ. Do you find it ok if people mistreat their cat or dog as well?

I find this interesting (and concede I know nothing of farming and stuff), I infer, that if everyone ate vegetables, there would be enough food for the whole world population... Not sure if this could be true since (I think) meat has a higher energy density than veg. So: if you filled every square inch of spare land with animals surely there would be enough food (meat) for everyone to eat anyway. the Co2 part does not add up as well as here (in the UK) Barretts are happily filling every sqaure inch of land with houses, even if everyone ate veg they would still have to ship it in from other countries, therefore more Co2 (and other pollutants).

Read this link. Your assumptions are wrong on every account:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/660S

[discourse]

I tend to eat meat about once a month. Usually a Big Mac or similar. I do however eat fish almost daily. I can't live without shushi!

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by discourse

I tend to eat meat about once a month. Usually a Big Mac or similar. I do however eat fish almost daily. I can't live without shushi!

You caught me. I had sashimi ahi tuna last night (for the sixth time this year) and it was to die for! There's almost no way that I could completely stop eating fish altogether. I would probably pass out or something.

[griffonwing]

Originally Posted by Laz116

So what. We are also designed to reproduce. Some live a happier life not reproducing.

Ahh yes! But those who choose not to have any kids, they do not condemn those who do have kids.

"Oh my, look over there Margaret! They have offspring!

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Icarusbop

Moral ground: There isn't any really, animals are there to be eaten ( 'if we aren't supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?') I'm prettry certain Lions or(insert big predator of your choice here) doesn't go on much of a guilt trip when they get to eat people...

But doesn't this logic 'justify' all sorts of morally reprehensible behaviour?

[Icarusbop]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Well I'd like to differ. Do you find it ok if people mistreat their cat or dog as well?

Not really, but this tends to happen for the sake of being cruel (people tend for the best part not to eat cats or dogs (or pets)), Food animals primarily are mistreated, but it is not done for the sheer sake of cruelty (finance is a big part of it, as is growing enought meat for the demand).

Originally Posted by Laz116

Read this link (link removed). Your assumptions are wrong on every account:

I tried reading the link but it is too in depth to warrant the time. But it did notice this...

'Note that the number of calories is the same for both diets because the vegetarian foods consumed were proportionately increased to make sure that both diets contained the same number of calories'

Which seems to agree with my 'assumption' that 'meat has a higher calorific content', so your blanket statement of 'Your assumptions are wrong on every account:' is incorrect. IMO.

I tend to eat meat about once a month. Usually a Big Mac or similar.

Not really sure this constitues meat

[rhari79]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i added that option for you rhari

Oh..You actually used the phrase..Thanks a million..

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i share your frustration about meat being "slipped in" unexpectedly.

If only there is a general clue that there is something alien in there..

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

they are made with chicken broth.

Thanks for the warning; I usually have my friend, my food consultant with me, but on an off day I am helpless.

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

when at a restaurant you ask if something is vegetarian and they say "oh, you're vegetarian ! but you eat chicken, right ? no ? really ? what about fish ? surely you eat fish ?" how is that vegetarian if you eat chicken ???

I actually think there are some levels in the non-veg food chain: eggs, fish, chicken, meat, beef, pork etc., in approx that order. I know many people who consider themselves veggies but relish eggs, fish and chicken.

On similar lines there are some subtle lines in the veggie food chain too. Many people i know(elder people), dont eat root-based vegetables, like onions..
I avoid mushrooms whenever possible; have doubts about their veggie status, but more so, dont like their bland taste.

One recent diet/health fad in my home town is Vegetarian Eggs..

[benham]

Can I offer you a nice juicy veggy burger? No thanks, make mine angus beef!

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

Ahh yes! But those who choose not to have any kids, they do not condemn those who do have kids.

"Oh my, look over there Margaret! They have offspring!

And where do you see condemnation of people who eat meat?

It's usually the other way around, you know.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Icarusbop

I tried reading the link but it is too in depth to warrant the time. But it did notice this...

'Note that the number of calories is the same for both diets because the vegetarian foods consumed were proportionately increased to make sure that both diets contained the same number of calories'

Which seems to agree with my 'assumption' that 'meat has a higher calorific content', so your blanket statement of 'Your assumptions are wrong on every account:' is incorrect. IMO.

Sorry but I'm not. Yes meat is more concentrated kcal-wise but that doesn't really mean anything in itself. The amount of land mass needed to produce the meat is actually larger than to produce the equivalent vegetable-kcal (chickens and cows have to eat too). It takes more water etc. etc.

It's all in the link.

[griffonwing]

As a meat and potatoes person, I actually do not condemn anyone who decides not to partake. More meat and potatoes for me. But also, as a meat and potatoes guy, I have been asked by vegans "how can you", or "it's not healthy" or other such tot.

So, i think (meaning, my opinion), as a whole, vegans look down on meat-eaters more often than the other way around. And I am talking "as a whole", not singling anyone out. And this is all from my own personal experience, not based on any surveys or such.

And any such vitamins and minerals that I miss from veggies, I get with vitamin supplements.

[nekokami]

I'm a demi-vegetarian: for the most part I eat vegetable products, dairy and eggs, and very occasionally (once a month or less) small amounts of chicken or seafood. I've been doing this since I was 16, which is (counts on fingers) 27 years now. It's a personal choice, and I don't try to convince others to make the same choice, even other members of my family. But I will describe my reasons and respond to some comments from this thread.

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Hmmm, sorry, I can't accept that being vegetarian is a more moral choice than not.

I think it's exactly that kind of statement that can give vegetarians a bad name. It's every individual's right to choose their own life-style, but to claim the moral high ground because of your choice

Everyone has a right to choose their own life-style, but there can still be implications to that choice, and in some cases, we may want to look at those implications from a moral point of view. However, I agree that "claiming the moral high ground" doesn't help in discussions like these.

I do wonder when people leap to defend a meat-heavy diet. Sometimes people I know sound very defensive about eating meat, as if they feel guilty about it but don't want to admit it. I don't think this is helpful to either side of the discussion.

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

the other thing which drives me crazy is when at a restaurant you ask if something is vegetarian and they say "oh, you're vegetarian ! but you eat chicken, right ? no ? really ? what about fish ? surely you eat fish ?" how is that vegetarian if you eat chicken ???

I used to get this on airplanes a lot (when I used to travel for work). 30,000 feet in the air isn't a good place to find out that someone has forgotten to pack your meal and assumes you'll be happy with chicken.

Of course, that was back in the days when airlines actually fed passengers.

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

once i discovered gelatine in *yoghurt* for god's sake !

There are brands of yogurt I no longer buy for this reason. It's very annoying.

Originally Posted by Xiaopanda

Have you SEEN the Youth in Asia!?!?!?

I have two of the Youth of Asia living in my house. Dratted teenagers!

They aren't vegetarians, either. The older one keeps making noises about wanting to become one, but can't stick with it. I don't ask or expect my kids to become vegetarians. They know my reasons for doing so and they know what steps I take to stay healthy. It's a personal decision that I don't make for other people.

Originally Posted by Xiaopanda

I wanna ask, too...If your vegitarian, ARE you taking supliments, and do you know where the supliments are sourced from?

I take a multivitamin made from vegetable food concentrates.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Ok, let's ask you then, what about wool? No animal was harmed in producing that. Or milk? A cow, goat or horse will always give milk if they have young, more than enough to share with us humans.

Unfortunately, the dairy industry is inextricably tied to the veal industry, as there must be calves for cows to produce milk, but male calves are slaughtered early for veal because they won't bear milk later. I haven't worked through the ethical issues on this one. (There is also the problem that hard cheeses contain rennet, an enzyme that is normally obtained from the stomachs of calves.)

Wool is similar. The males tend to be slaughtered young for lamb meat. (They fight otherwise.) Same with chicken eggs, and then there are the issues of milk cows and egg-laying chickens being kept indoors in crowded conditions and fed hormones and antibiotics. I try to buy organic milk and cage-free organic eggs when possible. I try to get my honey from people I know who don't electrocute the drones or deprive the bees of all their honey, giving them only sugar water instead. I also avoid white sugar, which is purified using bone charcoal.

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about silk. "Slub" silk can be harvested without killing the silkworms, but that's not most of what's out there.

Here are the reasons I avoid eating meat:

1 - Eating lower on the food chain is less resource-intensive. We use resources to raise grain and vegetables. When we feed these to animals, the animals process them into food for themselves, and this process is inherently inefficient. The production of meat uses more water, land, petrochemicals, etc. than production of a similar quantity of vegetable protein. In the case of beef, the ratio is at least 18:1. For chicken, it's much lower, only 3:1. If all six billion humans in the world ate a typical US or western European diet, centered around large portions of meat, we'd need multiple Earths to supply that much food. On the other hand, there'd be enough food for a balanced diet for everyone with low or no meat consumption. My reasoning here is that I should try to live in a way that would be sustainable if everyone lived that way, as much as possible. (I think that makes me a Kantian. )

2 - Eating lower on the food chain also avoids accumulated toxins, such as pesticides, heavy metals, and biocontaminants like viruses (e.g. "mad cow").

3 - A meat-heavy diet is not healthy, although small portions of meat with a diet centered more on vegetables and some grains can be very healthy.

4 - I used to eat quite a bit of seafood, but I've been reading scientific articles about the state of the oceans and fish stocks, and I've nearly stopped eating seafood altogether. My current exception is mussels, which can be farm-raised in an environmentally sustainable way.

5 - If I were hungry enough, or my family were starving, I'm sure I could bring myself to kill and butcher a cow (or deer or whatever). But we're not that hungry. I live in a time and place where I have alternative sources of protein. I'd rather not be responsible for killing animals if I don't have to.

However, to make life easier when eating with a family of non-vegetarians, I've stopped worrying about chicken stock as an ingredient. So I guess I'm a pragmatist after all.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I do wonder when people leap to defend a meat-heavy diet. Sometimes people I know sound very defensive about eating meat, as if they feel guilty about it but don't want to admit it. I don't think this is helpful to either side of the discussion.

Just so the record is straight - I feel no guilt whatsoever about eating meat. My only beef (geddit ) is with people who seem to want to insist that their choice of life-style is somehow more moral than anybody elses.

[HarryT]

We apes evolved as omnivores. Personally I'm going to stick to what evolution designed us for.

[DixieGal]

Yummy, chicken fingers for lunch!

Q: What's that hard thing at the end of chicken fingers?
A: The fingernail!