WHy TOLKIEN and LOTR is overrated!!!

[no.guru]

I knew this thread had potential. But I also like Debian discussions, which are somewhat extreme and uncultured at times.

hidari: I do believe you can have an unpopular opinion. That's why I salute you for starting this thread, even if it's flawed.

[mores]

Originally Posted by bertold

What does "reality of the human condition" even mean? Can you please explain that?

Now that you mention it ...

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Bombadil. I disagree that Sam was not vulnerable to the temptation - he just didn't have it long enough for it to have a big effect.

While you are factually correct about old Tom, he's not one of the "human" representatives in the book. I wouldn't expect the Ents to be affected by the Ring, either.

On Sam, one can speculate, but I don't recall anything at all to suggest that he wanted to keep the Ring himself. If anyone can point to anything, I'd be interested.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

At the risk of being pedantic, to quote from the "Note on the Text" at the start of LOTR:

Well, yeah, pedantic, but right.

What do you suppose is meant by "book" in this context? It's almost as if Tolkien anticipated the fantasy series novel.

[bertold]

Originally Posted by Harmon

It's almost as if Tolkien anticipated the fantasy series novel.

No. Tolkien was forced into dividing his story into "volumes" and "books" post factum. He was very troubled by this, as can be witnessed by reading his letters relating to the matter.

[HarryT]

But it was never published divided into the six "books". They are, to the best of my knowledge, a part of the original "conception". I know that he was very unhappy about splitting it into three volumes, but that's an entirely different matter, forced by post-WWII paper shortages and the resulting high cost of printing.

[bertold]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But it was never published divided into the six "books".

It was. Perhaps not English, but at least two translations I know of were published seperately in six books (corresponding to Tolkien's "books", of course).

[hidari]

Originally Posted by bertold

See? You're still insulting people, calling them maniacs and suggesting one can't have a discussion with them (whoever they are). And you still insist, that the reason you got slapped around with a big trout in this thread, is because you have a different opinion than others.

NO BERTOLD YOU ARE RIGHT. YOU ARE SUPERIOR. YOU HAVE THE CORRECT VIEW ON LIFE. I WAS WRONG TO GIVE MY OPINION ON FANTASY OR ANY GENRE. THANK YOU FOR CORRECTING ME. i SEE NOW THAT MR HAS SHOWN ME THE LIGHT. IF I HAVE NO OPINION, I WILL CONSULT:

GRANNY, RICKY, PILOT BOB, NATCH, BERTOLD, AND ALL THE OTHER UBER POSTERS ON MR. NO. DO NOT WORRY, I AM AN IDIOT AS YOU THINK I AM. YOU WILL BE HAPPY WITH MY SUBSERVIENT POSTS IN FUTURE. AGAIN, YOUR VIEWS ARE ABOVE AND BEYOND.

YOURS,

HIDARI.

[Lady Blue]

This is a small room. You didn't really have to yell. You made my ears hurt.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Harmon

While you are factually correct about old Tom, he's not one of the "human" representatives in the book. I wouldn't expect the Ents to be affected by the Ring, either.

I suspect the Ents would be affected - but very slowly! )

Originally Posted by Harmon

On Sam, one can speculate, but I don't recall anything at all to suggest that he wanted to keep the Ring himself. If anyone can point to anything, I'd be interested.

Hmm... you're right. The one bit that stuck in my mind, I've just looked up, and it's written to exclude the possibility that Sam was asking from personal desire:

"Sam knew before he spoke, that it was vain, and that such words might do more harm than good, but in his pity he could not keep silent. "Then let me carry it a bit for you, Master," he said. "You know I would, and gladly, as long as I have any strength."

And reading further, I find I had misremembered something. Gandalf does not say at the Council of Elrond that the ring would corrupt anyone who held it, only that anyone who tried to wield it would become corrupted by its power. "The very desire of it corrupts the heart".

Thanks!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

And reading further, I find I had misremembered something. Gandalf does not say at the Council of Elrond that the ring would corrupt anyone who held it, only that anyone who tried to wield it would become corrupted by its power. "The very desire of it corrupts the heart".

Thanks!

I think that's the point about Sam - he doesn't desire it. And let's not forget that ultimately the Ring corrupts even Frodo. Does that, perhaps, tell us that Sam is a "better" person than Frodo?

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by hidari

NO BERTOLD YOU ARE RIGHT. YOU ARE SUPERIOR. YOU HAVE THE CORRECT VIEW ON LIFE. I WAS WRONG TO GIVE MY OPINION ON FANTASY OR ANY GENRE. THANK YOU FOR CORRECTING ME. i SEE NOW THAT MR HAS SHOWN ME THE LIGHT. IF I HAVE NO OPINION, I WILL CONSULT:

GRANNY, RICKY, PILOT BOB, NATCH, BERTOLD, AND ALL THE OTHER UBER POSTERS ON MR. NO. DO NOT WORRY, I AM AN IDIOT AS YOU THINK I AM. YOU WILL BE HAPPY WITH MY SUBSERVIENT POSTS IN FUTURE. AGAIN, YOUR VIEWS ARE ABOVE AND BEYOND.

YOURS,

HIDARI.

Yee gods, Hidari ..... are you maybe, just maybe, going into overkill mode?? Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but any critic (of anything) is going to get slammed up against the wall from time to time after voicing a seriously unpopular opinion.

They are still entitled to the damn thing, but they have to be willing to take the lumps that result from what they say. If they can't do that without taking the response personally (and swearing that everyone has "insulted" them), then they might want to think twice about especially provocative opinions.

Sort of like when I posted a series of polls that I thought DG might want to avoid. There are more intelligent ways of expressing an opinion than calling an author that is a favorite of many "over rated." Sort of up there with that guy who decided to express his "opinion" at the Holocaust Museum the other day with a gun. Yeah, he's entitled to his opinion, but his expression of that opinion was waaaaay over the line, and he's going to have to take the consequences for expressing it in the manner he did. I'm sure he's still convinced he did the "right" thing. I'm just as convinced that the majority of people think his opinion was nuts, and that he's nuts, and they are going to put him away (or to death). They won't be doing it to "insult" him .... it's just a natural reaction to what he did.

I doubt anyone honestly cares to insult you. It's just a natural reaction (for me) to ask anyone who says something unkind about the performance or work of another whether they think they can do better. If they can't, then I really don't think much of their view.

You want to pick apart some particular detail? Fine. I find errors in the work of Stephen King all the time. Big freaking errors. I find them in a lot of books, and they bug the hell out of me. However, I would not call Mr. King "over rated" .... just that I don't think that much of his editors or whoever does his initial proofreading. Or, if I didn't like his work, I would say that and leave it at that.

The fact that you linked to an outside source doesn't mean that much to me. I can find a source to support any stupid farking thing anyone would care to come up with. I can find sources that support some of the most whacked out ideas there are. It means nothing.

But really .... if you are going to ride the high horse, always be prepared to become an easy target in battle.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Yee gods, Hidari ..... are you maybe, just maybe, going into overkill mode??

...snip...

Sort of up there with that guy who decided to express his "opinion" at the Holocaust Museum the other day with a gun. Yeah, he's entitled to his opinion, but his expression of that opinion was waaaaay over the line, and he's going to have to take the consequences for expressing it in the manner he did. I'm sure he's still convinced he did the "right" thing.

Hmmm...whilst I tend to agree with your sentiments in this post, I just can't let the idea that Hidari calling Tolkein overrated is in any way analagous with people getting shot and killed pass without comment - and that comment is: Yee gods, Ricky ..... are you maybe, just maybe, going into overkill mode??

[ahi]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Sort of like when I posted a series of polls that I thought DG might want to avoid.

Link, please?

[ahi]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I find errors in the work of Stephen King all the time. Big freaking errors. I find them in a lot of books, and they bug the hell out of me. However, I would not call Mr. King "over rated" .... just that I don't think that much of his editors or whoever does his initial proofreading. Or, if I didn't like his work, I would say that and leave it at that.

Is Stephen King really seen more as a Great Writer than merely a Commercially Successful Writer of Popular Fiction? The difference is titanic, in my view.

- Ahi