Seriously strange pronounciations (?)

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's a Scottish name and, as Ricky rightly says, the "z" is a substitute for an old Norse letter called "Yogh", which was pronounced "ng".

There's a Scottish limerick which plays on this:

There wis a young lassie named Menzies,
That asked her aunt whit this thenzies.
Said her aunt wi a gasp,
"Ma dear, it's a wasp,
An you're haudin the end whaur the stenzies!"

The words at the end of the first, second, and fifth line should be pronounced "Ming is", "Thing is", and "Sting is", respectively, to understand it.

Very curious. Thanks, Harry. I should point out that the pronunciations here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/menzies are both "men-zees". The citations listed are the Random House and American Heritage dictionaries. Is this another Americanization (excuse me, Americanisation)?

[HarryT]

No, in England it's generally pronounced "Men-zeez", too. The only reason that people here know how it "should" be pronounced is that we have a very well-known politician, and former leader of the Liberal Democrat party, called "Sir Menzies Campbell" who is always referred to as "Ming Campbell".

[slayda]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Okay, you got me, slayda. My head is hurting.

“Uv all de creeturs”, said Uncle Remus, in response to a questioning took on the part of the little boy, “ol Brer B’ar had de biggest an’ de warmest house. I dunner why ner wharfo’, but I’m a-tellin’ you de plain fack, des ez dey to!’ it unter me. Ef I kin he’p it I never will be deceivin’ you, ner lead you inter no bad habits. Yo’ pappy trotted wid me a mighty long time, an’ ef you’ll ax him he’ll tell you dat de one thing I never did do wuz ter deceive him whiles he had his eyes open; not ef I knows myse’f. Well, ol’ Brer B’ar had de big house I’m a-tellin’ you about. Ef he y’ever is brag un it, it aint never come down ter me. Yit dat’s des what he had—a big house an’ plenty er room fer him an’ his fambly; an’ he aint had mo’ dan he need, kaze all er his fambly wuz fat an’ had what folks calls heft—de nachal plunkness.

It would be interesting to hear what the Kindle 2's text read aloud would make if that.

[Peverel]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

pope? (karma if you get the reference)

surely not :

Is the pope a catholic?
Do bears sh*t in the woods?

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by slayda

I challenge anyone (who didn't grow up hearing it) to read the Tales of Uncle Remus aloud at all, let alone correctly. I grew up hearing it and still have trouble wrapping my tongue around it. It takes a page or two to get my mind in the groove.

For those that don't know it is written somewhat phonetically.

And, I can't read those works anymore without hearing the voice of James Basket in my head. He was one of the greats. (We had a set of 45 rpm records when I was a kid, that had Mr. Basket telling all of the Uncle Remus stories. I listened to them till I purt' near wore 'em out.)

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Okay, you got me, slayda. My head is hurting.

“Uv all de creeturs”, said Uncle Remus, in response to a questioning took on the part of the little boy, “ol Brer B’ar had de biggest an’ de warmest house. I dunner why ner wharfo’, but I’m a-tellin’ you de plain fack, des ez dey to!’ it unter me. Ef I kin he’p it I never will be deceivin’ you, ner lead you inter no bad habits. Yo’ pappy trotted wid me a mighty long time, an’ ef you’ll ax him he’ll tell you dat de one thing I never did do wuz ter deceive him whiles he had his eyes open; not ef I knows myse’f. Well, ol’ Brer B’ar had de big house I’m a-tellin’ you about. Ef he y’ever is brag un it, it aint never come down ter me. Yit dat’s des what he had—a big house an’ plenty er room fer him an’ his fambly; an’ he aint had mo’ dan he need, kaze all er his fambly wuz fat an’ had what folks calls heft—de nachal plunkness.

And karma to the person who knows what "Brer" means in plain English.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

And karma to the person who knows what "Brer" means in plain English.

actually i'm pretty sure it means "brother", but that always confused me because i can't understand how you could get from one to the other.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Peverel

surely not :

Is the pope a catholic?
Do bears sh*t in the woods?

Yep.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

actually i'm pretty sure it means "brother", but that always confused me because i can't understand how you could get from one to the other.

And, karma goes to the lady with the pinwheel.

Yes, Brer does mean Brother. So, it's really Brother Fox, Brother Bear and Brother Rabbit.

The other Southernism that's used a lot is Cuz for Cousin. Another one for brother is "bubba" .... that gets used a LOT around here.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

And, karma goes to the lady with the pinwheel.

Yes, Brer does mean Brother. So, it's really Brother Fox, Brother Bear and Brother Rabbit.

The other Southernism that's used a lot is Cuz for Cousin. Another one for brother is "bubba" .... that gets used a LOT around here.

so how do you pronounce "brer" ? it still seems to be an unlikely contraction to me...

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

so how do you pronounce "brer" ? it still seems to be an unlikely contraction to me...

More or less like Brair. I have a theory about how it came to be. It's a more common contraction around the Cajun areas of the South (which are mostly French speaking ... or a form of French anyway). I think they took the French word for brother and just stuck a "b" at the front in a passing reference to the English word and then swallowed the second syllable.

That's my theory anyway.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

More or less like Brair. I have a theory about how it came to be. It's a more common contraction around the Cajun areas of the South (which are mostly French speaking ... or a form of French anyway). I think they took the French word for brother and just stuck a "b" at the front in a passing reference to the English word and then swallowed the second syllable.

That's my theory anyway.

well that makes more sense than anything i can think of...

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

well that makes more sense than anything i can think of...

In both the Cajun and Creole areas (the difference being more ethnic than anything else -- Cajuns are ethnically White, while Creoles are a mixture of White, Black and American Indian -- mostly Choctaw, Chicasaw and Seminole) there are lots of words that are mangled French/English/and who knows what.

A good example is when they want to call you "dear" or "sweetie" they don't say "cherie" (and pardon me if I spelled that wrong), they say "cher". I must have heard that word a bazillion times back when I decided it would be fun to explore the Bayou Country in a canoe with a Cajun guide.

He, and his whole family, although they lived less than 20 miles or so from New Orleans, had never been there. If they couldn't make it, hunt it, or gather it from what they found out in the bayou, then they just didn't much need it.

My guide told me a joke I will never forget. What is the difference between a naturalist/scientist and a Cajun? The naturalist will give you the common name for the animal, the habitat and behavior information, and the Latin taxanomic name for the animal. The Cajun will give you the common name, the habitat and behavior information, and at least twenty recipes for each one.

I rather fear they did not survive Katrina, but there's really no way to know unless I wander around in a canoe and try to find them again. I hope they made it. It was so much fun, tossing marshmallows (that I bought from the store) to the gators. Those gators LOVED marshmallows!!

[BenG]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

so how do you pronounce "brer" ? it still seems to be an unlikely contraction to me...

Just try to pronounce "brother" as one syllable. You have to slide over the middle part.

[Idoine]

When I decided to take up English again (after some 10 years of technical readings from time to time ! ), I bought a book for children, "Redwall", by Brian Jacques. I thought it would be easier to read...
Did you read anyone of the series ? Between the banquets of various vegetables, fruits, and nuts (that required a big dictionary !), there are the different patois spoken by the animals !
For children, of course, but anglophone ones !
I was hooked nonetheless, and I have all the series in paperback !