Ebook reader survey on preferred format(s)

[taosaur]

There's no need for it to be a format war. Many people will continue to prefer PDFs, particularly for small laptops and large readers, but there are undoubtedly situations, texts, and people for which a reflowable format with lower production value is more desirable. I'm sure there are and will continue to be people reading the same book in a reflowable format on their smartphone and in PDF on their laptop depending on where they are.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by ahi

eBooks *AS* pBook equivalents (with possibly additional [not compensatory] features) is the only way for eBooks to ever be taken seriously either by publishers or by the majority of the book reading public.

If you feel otherwise, what do you base your assumption on?

On the cost of the book.

Paperbacks are frequently printed on a very cheap paper, and if readers were that sensitive to the quality, everybody would be buying hardcovers printed on glossy paper.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Ankh

On the cost of the book.

Paperbacks are frequently printed on a very cheap paper, and if readers were that sensitive to the quality, everybody would be buying hardcovers printed on glossy paper.

1. Cheap paper, unless it is overly translucent, has little to nothing to do with typographic quality. Not unlike the price or quality of the eBook reading device has nothing to do with typographic quality so long as it does not actively hinder it (by a screen too small for reasonable book reading, for example).

2. Glossy paper is the wrong choice for all but a certain subset of books--no matter how much money you have to spend.

3. It is so UTTERLY trivial to create a beautifully typeset book targeted at a specific device (assuming said device has any merit as an eBook reader [i.e.: its display is sufficiently large]). There need not be a cost difference between a quality PDF targeted at an eBook device and an multi-device capable but lower quality ePub. You just need the eBook provider/publisher to give a damn.. and they don't yet.

Probably because the eBook (device using) market is so limited that an unknown publisher can more easily give away more free (non-eBook device) PDFs in 4 months than an eBook device dedicated website can give away their free (eBook device only format) versions of the same book over a year and a half.

- Ahi

[JSWolf]

One of the MAIN reasons for a reader is the ability to have larger fonts then say the pBook version. So if the main font size is too small, we can increase it. PDF doesn't work like that. You get one fonts size and that's it. Do you think publishers are going to make PDF for every size screen in every font size? if you do, you are sadly mistaken. PDF comes in fixed sized usually not good for portable readers. So unless the the publishers can make PDF in every size with every font size, it's a useless format for eBooks.

I read on small and the same eBook, my wife would read at medium. If I made a PDF that was ok for me, it would not be ok for her. But I can make an ePub that is OK for both of us.

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by ahi

1. Cheap paper, unless it is overly translucent, has little to nothing to do with typographic quality.

I do not concentrate only on typographic quality. In general, paperback looks cheap, print is less clear, it is less pleasant to read than most of the hardcover books. Do you agree?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ahi

So, the real question, JSWolf, is:

Why is the ability to make nitpicky adjustment of the font or the margin better than having somebody that knows far more about bookmaking than you creating a finely crafted eBook targeted at your reader device?

Right now I have a 6" screen on my 505. Larger screen devices are going to be coming out eventually. If I decide to get one, the ePub I have now will look good on the larger screen. But that hand crafted eBook targeted at my 6" screen will look silly on a larger screen (say 9.7") as it will have a lot of blank space and look smaller based on the new devices higher resolution. So this hand crafted PDF is fixed to one screen size. It's not nice on a larger screen. ePub I can read on my 505 and then move to a larger screen and it'll be fine.

And why do you think someone else knows my needs/wants better then I do? What if I don't like the way this person handcrafts this PDF? I have no choice but to live with it. ePub I can fix it should it not be suitable. I know you say I should not need to fix it up. But what if I released an eBook with say a sans-serif font, 2% margins, paragraph spaces and no indents because I decided I like that? You think that looks bad. With ePub, I can fix that. With PDF, I'm stuck with an awful reading experience.

What if this hand crafted PDF is using a font I find hard to read with? I'm again screwed. With ePub, I can fix that so I can have an enjoyable reading experience. Face it, the way a PDF looks is based upon the creator and ePub can be changed if need be.

[ahi]

With all due respect, insufficient understanding of both the technologies and the issues involved regularly bring out downright bizarre arguments on this subject.

I am going to stop evangelizing though, because I see no chance whatsoever that PDF or a similarly rigid format will not eventually become the primary standard for eBook devices... no matter how much paper book quality eBooks offend many people's sensibilities.

I will lay off this subject for a while though, because I am past frustrated as few of the points I make seem to be remembered for longer than 3-4 posts worth of time.

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Ankh

I do not concentrate only on typographic quality. In general, paperback looks cheap, print is less clear, it is less pleasant to read than most of the hardcover books. Do you agree?

No, not as a broad/general correlation. And I do apologize, but beyond answering this so as not to be rude, I am stopping my participation in this thread.

- Ahi

[=X=]

Originally Posted by ahi

Yes, ePub will no doubt be able to turn any handheld device into a fine HTML viewer. But it will never be able to turn them into a device that displays professionally made books, textbooks, and magazines as they were intended to be viewed.

Do you accept, by the way, that people whose living depends on making good looking and readable books are going to be better at that tasks than random eBook device enthusiasts or software automation? Or does our disagreement start on this very fundamental point?

I agree with you here and you are quite right. There is no way automation/technology or even a laymen with the right tools exceed the work of a master of craft. Your PDF books are a good example. However that level of quality requires much customization, you do have 6+ versions of your PDF book correct (add one more for my personal copy ).

However there is good enough. For instance we no longer go to tailors or cobblers be go to the local mall, store, department store, etc... to buy our clothing and shows. We are all quite content doing so, for the convenience it offers. However when you want to look good we go to tailors. We are willing to pay the higher price and wait for the clothing to get fully fitted.

For most books ePUB/LIT/MOBI is good enough. Add the convenience/flexibility to be able to modify fonts/margins on any device an now you have a format people are going to prefer over well tailored PDF.

The reason PDF reined on the PC world is that it the final target was always optimized for A4/Letter.
This is not so for the eReading world. It is no longer the best choice of format. There are all sorts of different screen sizes and resolutions. It is not feasible for publishers to generate optimized format for each reader screen. You can go Feedbooks route that personalize the format/fonts but then why ePUB/MOBI do that just fine and offer more flexibility.


But yet even then there is one element you are not seeing in your argument that is an extremely important point. The reading software. The software produced by MobiPocket and eReader are far superior to any PDF reading software made today.

=X=

[=X=]

Originally Posted by ahi

With all due respect,....

I am going to stop evangelizing .....
- Ahi

Ahi,
I know you are quite frustrated. MobiRead has a way of frustrating those that have a different view.

Personally I have felt your comets, views, and knowledge enlightening and I hope to see your continued contribution to MobiRead

There is never one right way and people need to be flexible to different views and discussions like this help in doing so

Thank you

=X=

[Ankh]

Originally Posted by ahi

... no matter how much paper book quality eBooks offend many people's sensibilities.

No offense taken.

It is just that I lived through hardware upgrade, there is no way in hell that I will ever buy a novel in PDF or DRM that can not be stripped off.

I do not trust even Sony or Amazon to survive in publishing business and to provide "guardianship" of my purchased content. I am the best guardian there is.

I will agree with you, though, that analogy with paper is important for the initial acceptance of the technology.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

And if publishers won't listen to avid ebook readers who say, "give us stuff w/o DRM so that it works for us; we'd be willing to pay for that" or "give us formats that work on our readers" or "give us the option of buying an ebook for a friend," why would they listen when those readers say, "give us PDFs with tags and good fonts for a mobile device and bookmarks and good metadata?"

They're convinced that the ebook fanatics are the lunatic fringe, and they're going to ignore *everything* that comes out of places like Mobileread. They have a marketing department that tells them what the public really wants, and it's never "better metadata and linked TOCs!" Because "the public" doesn't know those things exist... they just know that they tried an ebook demo at a store, and they didn't like it.

Sorry, but the techie geeks never get listened to when it comes to devices that are aiming for main stream success as they are small fringe and make up too small a portion of the market.

If Apple listened to the techies, devices like the iPhone and iPod would be much more complicated and laden with features that most people don't need or understand and thus would sell so well. And the beauty of their devices, and the reason for their success, is that they just work. They are very intuitive and near idiot proof to use.

Good, mainstream tech devices are ones that do whatever they are supposed to do simply and efficiently. Not ones that have a ton of options and customization for the techies.

Sites like this exist to show techies how to find work arounds to do more of the things with devices than what is built into them. There will always be ways (mostly illegal as they require stripping DRM) to tweak margins, replace fonts, etc. regardless of the format used for ebooks and ereaders. It just won't be built in as most users--especially once ebooks go more mainstream--don't care to mess with that stuff and just want to buy a book and read right away.

Originally Posted by ahi

But this, along with the great likelihood (personally, I think virtual certainty, actually) of eBook reader device display size standardization, has been discussed at considerable length earlier in the thread.

- Ahi

Agreed, if ebooks, and especially magazines, newspapers etc., are ever going to be anywhere close to their paper counterparts there has to be some standardization of screen sizes. i.e. just at least a max size and ebooks stores list what size screen the magazine is optimized for etc.

Phones etc. could still read books--books of just text are no problem to reflow on any size screen--they already work well even with the current early formats and devices.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And why do you think someone else knows my needs/wants better then I do?

I think everyone gets why you and others want the flexibility. The larger point is that most people don't want to mess with that stuff, and just want to open a book and read.

So no matter how much you belabor the need for customization to other techies here, it's never going to happen. As ebooks become more mainstream, they will become more streamlined and easy to use and have les customization.

But I suspect they'll always have the ability to increase text sizes. But changing fonts, margins etc. will never be a feature built in to a mainstream reader from a major company or the software that comes with it. But there should always be options for tweaking them, be it ePub, Mobi, some other format or some new version of PDF that Adobe comes out with for ereaders that is more flexible. But those options will likely be illegal and require stripping DRM etc.--not that many care.

I am going to stop evangelizing though, because I see no chance whatsoever that PDF or a similarly rigid format will not eventually become the primary standard for eBook devices... no matter how much paper book quality eBooks offend many people's sensibilities.

Yep.

1. Most people, myself included, don't care much about typography quality etc. for most things. Especially just text.

2. Being able to increase font sizes is a big advantage of ebooks, and that requires easily reflowable formats. So while we won't see built in functions to change fonts, margins etc., I think we'll always be able to change the font size on ebooks, so it will never be a totally rigid format that wins in the mainstream.

Originally Posted by Ankh

It is just that I lived through hardware upgrade, there is no way in hell that I will ever buy a novel in PDF or DRM that can not be stripped off.

I do not trust even Sony or Amazon to survive in publishing business and to provide "guardianship" of my purchased content. I am the best guardian there is.

I'd say that I think there will always be DRM, but the fact that even Apple got rid of DRM on music files suggests otherwise. Digital media just more or less sucks for content providers since piracy is so easy.

With a physical book it may get sold once and bounced around to a few people (whether lent out, given away, sold to a used books store etc.) and take away some potential sales. But with an ebook without DRM one person can buy a copy, put it on a torrent site and hundreds or thousands of people download it, some of them put it on their own torrents etc. etc. and a great deal of potential sales can be lost.

So I see that, and I don't much mind DRM. I more or less just look at my purchase as a rental since I seldom ever re-read books. I'm paying the price to read the book, just like I pay $10 for a ticket to see a movie in the theater. Anything I want to see repeatedly I'll then by a paperbook for, just like I buy a Blu Ray or DVD of a movie I see in the theater (or from Netflix) and like enough to watch over and over.

DRM or no, I don't think ebooks, MP3s (I still buy CDs though I just rip them and mostly listen to MP3s), etc. are every going to be good for collecting purposes. For people who like to have whatever they buy around and accessible for good, there's just no substitute for a physical product.

Originally Posted by =X=

There is never one right way and people need to be flexible to different views and discussions like this help in doing so

Yep, again one of the problems with this site is that many people can't see or think about the ebook industry beyond what they personally need/want.

And that's problematic as this site is a niche with in a niche--avid readers who also tend to be techies. And neither of these niches will play a huge role in deciding the future of ebooks--especially the techies. The average Joe will determine where ebooks go in the future.

[gwynevans]

Originally Posted by =X=

Ahi,
I know you are quite frustrated. MobiRead has a way of frustrating those that have a different view.

Personally I have felt your comets, views, and knowledge enlightening and I hope to see your continued contribution to MobiRead

There is never one right way and people need to be flexible to different views and discussions like this help in doing so

Thank you

=X=

Indeed! While the discussions have been between some strongly held viewpoints, it is good to hear from someone with the expertise to be able to identify/demonstrate the 'pros' of a format that we're arguably too eager to dismiss. Please don't feel that your (ahi's) arguments have been ignored & I hope you're able to keep contributing as you have been!

/Gwyn

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Ankh

No offense taken.

It is just that I lived through hardware upgrade, there is no way in hell that I will ever buy a novel in PDF or DRM that can not be stripped off.

I do not trust even Sony or Amazon to survive in publishing business and to provide "guardianship" of my purchased content. I am the best guardian there is.

I will agree with you, though, that analogy with paper is important for the initial acceptance of the technology.

I am sensitive to the DRM madness... but not sensitive enough to feel that any solution thereto has a right to compromise the quality of my eBooks.

Thanks for all the positive and concerned comments and well-thought out counterpoints. I did not intend to imply I mean to withdraw from these forums--I just do not feel I have anything new to say on this particular subject.

I think all our positions are much closer to each other than we realize--so I'll stop focusing on the points of divergence, and just enjoy the good company and scintillating discussions (on many things other than PDF vs. ePub) on here.

Cheers!

- Ahi

[taosaur]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

One of the MAIN reasons for a reader is the ability to have larger fonts then say the pBook version. So if the main font size is too small, we can increase it. PDF doesn't work like that. You get one fonts size and that's it. Do you think publishers are going to make PDF for every size screen in every font size? if you do, you are sadly mistaken. PDF comes in fixed sized usually not good for portable readers. So unless the the publishers can make PDF in every size with every font size, it's a useless format for eBooks.

I read on small and the same eBook, my wife would read at medium. If I made a PDF that was ok for me, it would not be ok for her. But I can make an ePub that is OK for both of us.

I have to agree here, that ahi's proposal of a PDF for every device is not likely to happen. Just as mass-market paperbacks represent a trade-off of quality for cost and portability, opting for a small reading device is also a trade-off, and reflowable text best serves the priorities that trade-off represents. Why would anyone make those trade-offs? Because their priorities are different.

Most of the reading public, however, don't require larger or different fonts, and many will continue to opt for an actual-size, fixed format rendition of the printed page either on laptops/tablets/PCs they already have or on dedicated readers designed to that end.

Both formats will likely be with us for a long time.