Ebook reader survey on preferred format(s)

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by ahi

That would be a clear loss for the consumer, however. Format shifting to a less sophisticated format is (sometimes) simple. But you cannot, by design, so easily format shift to a more sophisticated one.

If publishers never take it on themselves to take eBooks as seriously as they do real books (and they do find the money for their backlist titles to be retypeset and reprinted on dead-tree books, so I don't see why saving a few bucks in making eBooks would make a world of a difference [particularly since unlike physical ones, eBooks have no shipping or other distribution costs]), eBooks will never be a realistic replacement for dead-tree books.

ePub, unless it starts encapsulating multiple display size and font size PDF files, will never be able to match the quality of physical books; so eBooks will either have to opt for PDF or will remain only for a nieche audience or only for typographically primitive books. In either case, for most things other than casual reading, people will find themselves stuck with paper books.

That seems to me more unlikely than the reasonable enough wholesale adoption of PDF (with, perhaps, ePub as an also supported standard to allow quick and dirty content generation for those with less sophisticated software tools or know-how).

Good discussion we are having though.

- Ahi

Very much so, and it's great to hear someone in support of PDF as a format, because I'm learning it's strengths and not just its weaknesses

Now let me ask, and it was on a point you brought up before about the 10 + years of HTML & CSS and how it hasn't been able to replicate the book or magazine. Do you not see a point in the future (when MS finally puts standards compliance into their browser) that web rendering will match PDF typography/layout etc? Do you think this is possible, or improbable?

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Very much so, and it's great to hear someone in support of PDF as a format, because I'm learning it's strengths and not just its weaknesses

Now let me ask, and it was on a point you brought up before about the 10 + years of HTML & CSS and how it hasn't been able to replicate the book or magazine. Do you not see a point in the future (when MS finally puts standards compliance into their browser) that web rendering will match PDF typography/layout etc? Do you think this is possible, or improbable?

Let me articulate--no doubt badly and poorly--why I do not see the web ever becoming a repository filled with typographically exemplary documents. Or, rather, first let me try to give you a sense what all typography involves.

Typography has to do with...
- the specific fonts used, the number of fonts used, the "pedigree" of the fonts used (serif or sans serif, as well as the artistic/typographic lineage for lack of a better term)
- the size of the fonts used, the size of the fonts used for specific items
- the white space between elements on a page, between pages (i.e.: when to leave a blank page--interestingly the rules around this naturally change/evolve for eBooks to "almost never"), between sentences, between lines, between words, and between individual characters
- the styles/substyles of the fonts used (regular roman, oblique [slanted non-italic], italic, small capitals)... the highest quality fonts have separate glyphs ("drawn" characters) for small capital "A" and regular capital "A", separate glyphs for italics and bolds, even separate glyphs for letters to be displayed at specific pt sizes.
- the progression from one font style/substyle to the next
- the "colour" of the page (ideal being a consistent level of grayness throughout), which is impacted by spacing of every sort (as listed before) and necessarily impacted by hyphenation of words (which has its own rules that software cannot get right 100% of the time)
- the size and ratio of the margins (again reinterpreting for eBooks simplifies this one)
- and much more...

To create typographically sound documents you need software that is aware of both high level and low level details... basically you need LaTeX. HTML, without duplicating LaTeX' functionality cannot achieve that. If it did, it would still need human guidance/assistance to deal with situation not automatically resolveable by software. And, even in this highly unlikely ideal scenario, reflowing to any display size/font size combination not anticipated and (human-)addressed would result in typographic degradation.

How much sense did that make?

- Ahi

[taosaur]

Originally Posted by ahi

I think ePub may become a secondary standard--but I think it will lose prestige, becoming relegated to use for user-generated and (possibly) self-ePublished stuff. Professional quality publications from publishers/companies will necessarily be PDFs.

Sorry to jump in late I just wanted to say, don't underestimate the 'pulp' market. I get the impression that straight-to-paperback genre material makes up a hefty proportion of what gets read on eInk devices; for material with low production values in the print world, reflowable text is a step up, and will likely persist.

Many on this forum, though, don't recognize how much people value the fidelity to print editions that only comes with PDF. The numbers for both PDF preference and reading on PCs suggest that I'm in the majority of readers for whom that fidelity, and the flexibility Sonist cites, trump the advantages of eInk devices and their attendant formats.

While I'm underwhelmed by the ADE software (installed yesterday), I'm thinking I'll go PDF for future purchases, because I'm confident of what to expect in terms of layout and quality on my 10" screen.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by ahi

How much sense did that make?

- Ahi

A lot

[ahi]

Good points, taosaur! I think most of them are roughly in line with my own (and perhaps to only a minimally lesser extant Sonist's) assumptions.

Given your stance and your 10 inch display, any chance you could test my 10 inch display landscape PDFs in another thread: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...39&postcount=1 I'd love to hear your opinion and whether you prefer the portrait or the landscape files for the 10 inch display. (To be discussed further at that thread, to avoid sliding totally off-topic.)

- Ahi

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

A lot

Cheers and G'night then!

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by mjh215

I have recently seen an excellent (not released) epub, heavily image laden with remarkable layout. It reflowed quite well on my Sony.

As to a 'standardized' size, I don't think you will see that. And I don't want it. Personal preference is a wonderful thing and something we should be moving towards. Some people like 6" screens, some a little bigger, others like a 5" or even a 4" screen so they can fit it in their pockets. Others again prefer larger screens like as the 9.7" eInk, sometimes for poor eyesight, others for larger format texts, manuals, magazines, comics, etc. And then there are those wishing for even larger readers available.

-MJ

Again, I think there just needs to be some maximum size screen and no e-magazines or newspapers or books exceed that. Not just one size screen period.

Then you'd know you could buy one that size and display anything without having to reflow it as everything would fit in the aspect ratio it was designed for. Kind of like wide screen TVs and movies. The TV is a set size, but you have movies in 2:35:1, 1:85:1, 1:78:1 etc. aspect ratios with different size black bars and so fort.

Readers need a set screen ratio and a set maximum size since text is too small if a large page is shrunk for a smaller screen. Then you can have all kinds of content in different sizes, some reflowable and some not.

Those who prefer a smaller reader could buy still buy one smaller than the standard maximum sixze, but may have reflow issues with magazines optimized for a larger screen etc. But text books would still be fine since reflow isn't an issue.

In any case, it's just key to get e-magazines and newspapers to more closely resemble their print counter parts. I hate the Kindle version of magazines etc. as I just don't end up reading nearly as much when I'm looking through lists of headlines etc. vs. flipping through the print magazine and getting drawn in by pictures, the layout of stories etc. Layout and typesetting etc. is huge with those media, where I really don't care when it comes to novels--text is text for the most part.

If I'm ever going to shift to e-magazines, it will be on a larger reader and when the content is near identical to the print versions. Until then, I'm fine keeping my Newsweek subcription etc. as it's cheap and magazines are easy to recycle. Unlike books that you really have to either keep, give away, sell or donate if you're like me and seldom re-read. Point being I don't have the main incentive to go to e-versions with magazines that I did with books.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ahi

Why is it that you don't see the fact that you need to edit it to fit your needs a failure of the product? Because it really is just that.

With ePub, I can edit it to fit my needs, with PDF, if it doesn't fit my needs, then it's useless. How is useless better then something I can edit?

My needs may be something as simple as changing the margins because I prefer no margins. Or changing the base font because I prefer a different font. But PDF gives me none of these options. It is as it is and if it as it is, it is not suitable, then it is useless. That is one major reason why PDF will never work as an eBook format.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I think that's the point I'm driving at. If the output becomes good enough and the creation easy enough so that ePub matches (and maybe surpasses) PDF then PDF itself is pointless - unless you do need a fixed size, I suppose.

PDF will remain incredibly useful for what it was designed for--a print-ready format. That's why publishers are so fond of it. PDF to paper is an easy transition, and when you look at the file, you know exactly what the paper will look like.

And unless there's ever a "scan to ePub" option, PDF won't be replaced in the business world, either. It doesn't matter that those scans are almost unreadable on ebook devices (and aren't great on computer screens, either); they're legible and stable, and they play a large part in the modern litigation industry.

EPub won't replace PDF any more than HTML editors replaced word processing programs.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

With ePub, I can edit it to fit my needs, with PDF, if it doesn't fit my needs, then it's useless. How is useless better then something I can edit?

The bigger issue is that most people don't want to screw with having to edit things.

I will NEVER edit an e-book, journal article etc. It will either open and display properly on my device, or I won't buy it and will just get a print version or print out the PDF.

So you're talking about something that really only matters to a small number of e-reader users willing to mess with editing and converting stuff. Probably a decent number of people on sites like these--but forms always skew to the more tech inclined.

But in the mainstream, your average Kindle owner isn't going to know how to do such things or want to take the time to learn. Even more so when e-readers expand and move away from dedicated readers to more people having them in multifunction devices like phones and eventual tablet devices etc. and thus get in the hands of more regular, non-techie folk.

Most people are just going to want something they can just open and read in a nice, clean format. The key is getting a format that reflows that well, or getting some screen size standards so stuff doesn't need reflowed.

[All4Fun]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

With ePub, I can edit it to fit my needs, with PDF, if it doesn't fit my needs, then it's useless. How is useless better then something I can edit?

My needs may be something as simple as changing the margins because I prefer no margins. Or changing the base font because I prefer a different font. But PDF gives me none of these options. It is as it is and if it as it is, it is not suitable, then it is useless. That is one major reason why PDF will never work as an eBook format.

Jon, respectfully, I cringe everytime I see you write that PDF will never work as an ebook format. While it may have its limitations for you, to dismiss PDF as an ebook format is still debatable.

While you and a few other MR enthusiasts may have the skill to modify the xHTML/CSS of ePubs to suit your formatting needs, I don't have that skill. Could I learn it? Sure, I can. (I'm still trying to find a post to explicitly tell me how to embed my own preferred fonts in an epub btw) But what about the less-than-sophisticated person that reads epub ebooks and wants to change margins or base fonts or anything else within an epub? Are they expected to learn how to do this just so that epub ebooks will fit their formatting needs? Certainly, no ebook device today lets you change margins or even the preferred font for an epub ebook. Can Calibre do this? I don't know but, again, are we expecting folks to have the know-how to do this just so that they can get the formatting they desire out of an epub?

As I've said in previous posts before, there is a place for both epub and pdf ebooks to take advantage of their inherent strengths. While epub is good enough for novels, it doesn't appear to have the sophistication to be as visually appealing as pdf where layout is important such as for magazines, etc. Epub is still emerging and pdf is not going to disappear as a format for ebooks.

[All4Fun]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

The bigger issue is that most people don't want to screw with having to edit things.

I will NEVER edit an e-book, journal article etc. It will either open and display properly on my device, or I won't buy it and will just get a print version or print out the PDF.

So you're talking about something that really only matters to a small number of e-reader users willing to mess with editing and converting stuff. Probably a decent number of people on sites like these--but forms always skew to the more tech inclined.

But in the mainstream, your average Kindle owner isn't going to know how to do such things or want to take the time to learn. Even more so when e-readers expand and move away from dedicated readers to more people having them in multifunction devices like phones and eventual tablet devices etc. and thus get in the hands of more regular, non-techie folk.

Most people are just going to want something they can just open and read in a nice, clean format. The key is getting a format that reflows that well, or getting some screen size standards so stuff doesn't need reflowed.

I didn't see your post before posting mine but I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[dmaul1114]

Yeah, I think a problem with this site (and any forum for any type of tech device) is that too many people don't think beyond what THEY personally need or want in a device.

That's often very different that what the mainstream users of such a device need/want/have the know how and interest to do. And the mainstream owners are what matter as that's where the money is.

Thus people over-sing the praises of being able to edit epub (great for them but most don't care) or fail to see how something like an Apple Tablet--even if it's LCD--could help sell a ton more ebooks to people who are very light readers and don't need an e-ink screen etc. etc.

[All4Fun]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yeah, I think a problem with this site (and any forum for any type of tech device) is that too many people don't think beyond what THEY personally need or want in a device.

That's often very different that what the mainstream users of such a device need/want/have the know how and interest to do. And the mainstream owners are what matter as that's where the money is.

I agree. While enthusiasts are the early adopters and embrace the technology, it's the mainstream users that will sustain it.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yeah, I think a problem with this site (and any forum for any type of tech device) is that too many people don't think beyond what THEY personally need or want in a device.

That's often very different that what the mainstream users of such a device need/want/have the know how and interest to do. And the mainstream owners are what matter as that's where the money is.

The root cause though is significant. Personally, I assume it is due to the fact that the immaturity of the current technology and eBook offerings force people into extremely unnatural modes of behavior. Behaviors that they then assume will forever be necessary to truly be able to use eBook devices.

But progress will happen. Stupid, stupid mistakes that never should have happened (like no folders) will eventually be fixed. Unless ePub with its *literally unsurpassable* quality limitations unilaterally triumphs over PDF, eBook devices have a reasonably good chance of replacing most printed materials.

I believe my grand-children might well grow up in a world where physical books will increasingly be seen as an extravagant luxury.

But! The only way that can happen is if eBooks can match dead-tree books in quality 100%. Unlike us lot, the vast majority of humanity is not going to pay $300 to spend almost as much time format-shifting and eBook-fixing as they do reading... and they certainly won't give up cheap paperbacks/magazines for something that doesn't even look as good as said cheap paperbacks/magazines.

Originally Posted by All4Fun

As I've said in previous posts before, there is a place for both epub and pdf ebooks to take advantage of their inherent strengths. While epub is good enough for novels, it doesn't appear to have the sophistication to be as visually appealing as pdf where layout is important such as for magazines, etc.

In a sense, this sums up the reality of the situation--and this summation cannot change, no matter how good ePub gets. The same reason 10 years of massive progress could not make websites as high quality and sophisticated as printed documents, ePub will never be able to become as good at doing what PDF is supposed to do... and what PDF is supposed to do is what books are all about: provide a pleasant and enjoyable reading experience of a thoughtfully prepared book of a specific size and appearance--without the necessity or even the option of needlessly fidgeting with margins and HTML tags.

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

The bigger issue is that most people don't want to screw with having to edit things.

And, indeed, most people don't screw with having to edit things... any sort of things. If it doesn't work for them in a quality enough way that they feel they got their money's worth or more, they won't buy next time.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

With ePub, I can edit it to fit my needs, with PDF, if it doesn't fit my needs, then it's useless. How is useless better then something I can edit?

My needs may be something as simple as changing the margins because I prefer no margins. Or changing the base font because I prefer a different font. But PDF gives me none of these options. It is as it is and if it as it is, it is not suitable, then it is useless. That is one major reason why PDF will never work as an eBook format.

There is no reason for excessive margins on eBook devices. Their presence is an indication of laziness, ignorance, or incompetence on the part of eBook creators. With sensibly targeted and formatted eBooks, there ought exist no need to change the appearance. A want, perhaps--but not a need. If there is a need, the product is not serving you as the customer.

The same way DVD buyers shouldn't have to fit the cinematic widescreen video to the TV's 4:3 ratio if that is what they prefer, you shouldn't have to muck around with the eBook to fix it up either.

And why do you want a different font anyways, JSWolf? Do you have some remarkably high quality opentype fonts that you wish to use to enhance your reading experience? Of course I pose the question rhetorically, because while PDFs may well make use of such a fonts, the ePub cannot take meaningful advantage of them for reasons that have little to do with present-moment limitations.

Nitpicky control over trivialities seems like a bad reason to accept quality degradation--because, of course, your "How is useless better then something I can edit?" is a false dichotomy. Good enough is better than useless, as I have conceded time and again... but there is no reason to assume that eBook reader display sizes won't get standardized and publishers won't start taking eBooks seriously enough one of these days to start publishing professional quality eBooks for them, instead of throwing overpriced sloppy HTML dumps at their customers.

So, the real question, JSWolf, is:

Why is the ability to make nitpicky adjustment of the font or the margin better than having somebody that knows far more about bookmaking than you creating a finely crafted eBook targeted at your reader device?