Ebook reader survey on preferred format(s)

[ahi]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When larger screens do hit the market, I think ePub will be even more important.

Why do you think so?

(I'm with Sonist below.)

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When larger screens do hit the market, I think ePub will be even more important. So even if your current format of choice is not ePub, vote for ePub anyway. It will help get possibly better formatted eBooks then is possible with Mobipocket.

If it was just books, I'd say, maybe.

But when large screens hit, with color, it will be also magazines, as well as other more complex publications, which will be viewed on these screens as well.

And I am not sure EPUB will cut it.

I personally am starting to think, that if there is a screen size standardization, which is very likely, it's all over. Not just because of magazines, but also stuff like Google book scans allowing PDF downloads. On a larger, color screen, these will be readable. Publishers can use the same tools they use for print, and output PDFs with very little effort.

With PDF, you can do a nicely designed magazine, with embedded video interviews (and ads:-), live links, etc..

People do not deal well with multiple standards, and I think a standard-size larger screen removes whatever advantages something like EPUB may currently have.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Sonist

And PDF is the only one I currently know of, that can handle all of it. You can tag it, you can embed video and links into it, you can embed fonts, you can search within it, you can set the layout, or make it reflowable.... It supports both Mac and PC (stuff like DRM-ed .mobi doesn't.)

Originally Posted by Sonist

If it was just books, I'd say, maybe.

But when large screens hit, with color, it will be also magazines, as well as other more complex publications, which will be viewed on these screens as well.

And I am not sure EPUB will cut it.

I personally am starting to think, that if there is a screen size standardization, which is very likely, it's all over. Not just because of magazines, but also stuff like Google book scans allowing PDF downloads. On a larger, color screen, these will be readable. Publishers can use the same tools they use for print, and output PDFs with very little effort.

With PDF, you can do a nicely designed magazine, with embedded video interviews (and ads:-), live links, etc..

People do not deal well with multiple standards, and I think a standard-size larger screen removes whatever advantages something like EPUB may currently have.

actually, epub can do everything you mention, reflows worlds better than pdf, and with css can support very advanced layout (good enough for magazines). the current viewers aren't capable of supporting all these features, but the format can.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

actually, epub can do everything you mention, reflows worlds better than pdf, and with css can support very advanced layout (good enough for magazines). the current viewers aren't capable of supporting all these features, but the format can.

Is that where the problem lies though, in a seperation of disciplines? Designers, for the most part, are GUI types (gross oversimplification) who use products like Quark/Indesign to produce layouts for print books, whereas the CSS skills for ePub are more a 'coding' skill (another gross oversimplification).

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, because I'd like ePub to suceed, but I can also see how these companies would like to keep hold of their existing knowledge-bases and use that to transition. 'If' these 9/10" colour screens become popular and 'if' the publishers no longer need worry about smaller devices, what's to stop them from going all PDF for everything they produce? Their typographers and book preparation employees are already trained in GUI layout, so no retraining needed. The whole workflow becomes much simpler for them, with very little change needed from the normal publishing model (the typesetters/book designers files will easily convert direclty to PDF at the same time as going to the printer).

EDIT: I forgot about Indesign's ePub output, so the questions above are probably mute If Indesign's output of ePub becomes more robust, which is bound to happen, then producing the ePub files would be as trivial as outputting to PDF.

[TheJohnNewton]

I don't see my preferred format in the list. A format that works on all devices and supports links, pictures, and such.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I stand corrected. And I just downloaded your 'Art of War' PDF and it does look fantastic. But let me ask you this, why, if it just a matter of correct formatting, do we get so many badly put together PDF's (especially from Publishing houses)? Are they (as I think someone else suggested) just "Printing to PDF" rather than taking the time to do it correctly, or is there some other reason I'm not aware of?

Printing to PDF is clean compared to what publishing houses do. They often edit a PDF version and that causes a fractured database with words all over the file but moved to the correct place by PDF positioning technology. This all over the file placement of words and images is what causes conversion nightmares and failures. Publishers should have a clean source (with source control) that is not PDF and then convert to PDF using a good production tool such as PDF distiller.

Dale

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sonist

If it was just books, I'd say, maybe.

But when large screens hit, with color, it will be also magazines, as well as other more complex publications, which will be viewed on these screens as well.

And I am not sure EPUB will cut it.

I personally am starting to think, that if there is a screen size standardization, which is very likely, it's all over. Not just because of magazines, but also stuff like Google book scans allowing PDF downloads. On a larger, color screen, these will be readable. Publishers can use the same tools they use for print, and output PDFs with very little effort.

With PDF, you can do a nicely designed magazine, with embedded video interviews (and ads:-), live links, etc..

These embedded videos do not work on mobile ADE. So unless we get eink fast enough for animation, that'll never happen. Besides, I don't want it.

As for layout of a magazine, ePub can do it and do it well and it can be resized so people who do need or want a larger type size can have it. PDF is fixed and the current reflow we have is not good enough for a magazine layout with graphics. So why not use something that works (ePub) instead of trying to fix something that's unfixable (PDF)?

People do not deal well with multiple standards, and I think a standard-size larger screen removes whatever advantages something like EPUB may currently have.

Then we will dump PDF and in it's place put ePub. There is a sample ePub attached to a message on MR someplace that looks just like a scientific journal article. It's conciderably better the any PDF version as it reflows and changing the font size still looks very good.

[Moejoe]

What I'm wondering now is if Indesign/Quark etc, the GUI layout products become more robust and reliable in their outputting of ePub then it's PDF that might be left behind. If the book designers can do everything they could do with PDF and have the final output work on a myriad of devices from smartphones to 10" tablets, then why would they want to use PDF and produce multiple 'fixed-size' versions of the same document? What role then for PDF if you have to target the output to the actual screen-size?

Or is my reasoning faulty? Can the software companies have a reliable 'designers' application that offers true WYSIWYG ePub creation?

[dmaul1114]

I think the real key will be the industry deciding on a standard screen size for e-readers.f Have a set 9-10" size that all magazines, text books, newspapers etc. use. Novels that are just text don't matter so much as they can be reflowed. People who want a 6" reader for novels can get one and just have limited options for things other than regular books, other's can by the larger reader to use for books and magazines etc.

Until that happens we will have multiple formats with various reflow issues.

Again, I don't much mind as I don't have much current interest in e-reading beyond novles, and plain text reflows fine regardless of format (I'm not picky about occasional formatting errors). Magazines, PDF journal articles etc. I'll stick with print or web versions for now.

[Sonist]

O.K.. I found some random (not very complex, or good) layout on the web, and sent it to someone with Indesign 4 to export to EPUB and PDF.

I didn't tell them why I needed this, and asked them not to manipulate the file.

Attached are the results, as screengrabs. The EPUB was viewed with Calibre (Stanza refused to open it.)

Have a guess which is the PDF, and which is the EPUB (hint, the one which reflows

__________

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I think the real key will be the industry deciding on a standard screen size for e-readers.

Until that happens we will have multiple formats with various reflow issues.

Again, I don't much mind as I don't have much current interest in e-reading beyond novles, and plain text reflows fine regardless of format (I'm not picky about occasional formatting errors). Magazines, PDF journal articles etc. I'll stick with print or web versions for now.

Books have never standardized on size and eBook Readers will not either. Different sizes meet different needs, there is no one size fits all device.

Dale

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

O.K.. I found some random (not very complex, or good) layout on the web, and sent it to someone with Indesign 4 to export to EPUB and PDF.

I didn't tell them why I needed this, and asked them not to manipulate the file.

Attached are the results. Have a guess which is the PDF, and which is the EPUB (hint, the one which reflows

__________

Yes, but InDesign 4's ePub output is limited at best; that's why I said 'when it becomes more robust'. You still have to manipulate CSS and such after the creation from InDesign (a pain in the arse if you're not a coder).

http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditio...sign-epub.html

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Books have never standardized on size and eBook Readers will not either. Different sizes meet different needs, there is no one size fits all device.

Dale

Then there will always be issues with magazines, newspapers, scholarly articles etc. which have pictures, graphs, tables etc. meant to be a set size and a certain point in the text.

Again, I think there could be a standard maximum size that magazines etc. used, and that smaller portable readers just couldn't read those type of things very well. And people can decide whether they just need a portable reader, one of the larger readers, or both based on their reading habits.

Otherwise, I'm fine printing out my scholarly article pdfs, subscribing to some print magazines etc. I kind of prefer reading those things on paper anyway. And I recycle and there are plenty of trees anyway!

But with all the formatting issues currently, it's not worth bother with e-versions of such things IMO, so I just stick to novels which I can download and read with no issues whatsoever.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Yes, but InDesign 4's ePub output is limited at best; that's why I said 'when it becomes more robust'. You still have to manipulate CSS and such after the creation from InDesign (a pain in the arse if you're not a coder)....]

I often deal with both designers and programmers, and the problem is, that the standards, which will allow "manipulating CSS" to make a page look as good as possible in print or in PDF, are far, far in the hazy future.

PDF, however, is here. And it takes a couple of clicks for publishers to export to PDF, and to get a perfect product.

I am sure, there will be different, and/or highly evolved standards, a decade or more from now. The web will look different, and presumably much richer and better. But I don't see it happening in the next 2-3 years.

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Books have never standardized on size and eBook Readers will not either. Different sizes meet different needs, there is no one size fits all device.
...

Different animals, IMO. Look at screen sizes, which are fairly standard. While you can do any size on a press, there are only so many core component screen manufacturers.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Sonist

I often deal with both designers and programmers, and the problem is, that the standards, which will allow "manipulating CSS" to make a page look as good as possible in print or in PDF, are far, far in the hazy future.

PDF, however, is here. And it takes a couple of clicks for publishers to export to PDF, and to get a perfect product.

I am sure, there will be different, and/or highly evolved standards, a decade or more from now. The web will look different, and presumably much richer and better. But I don't see it happening in the next 2-3 years.

I think that's the point I'm driving at. If the output becomes good enough and the creation easy enough so that ePub matches (and maybe surpasses) PDF then PDF itself is pointless - unless you do need a fixed size, I suppose.

The more I think about it, the more I see Sony and Adobe's support for ePub as a sign of things to come. All we need now is an output file-format in major word processors and we're good to go (not so far fetched, Adobe Buzzword exports compliant ePub right now, with graphics and the like embedded).