Ebook reader survey on preferred format(s)

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by ahi

PDF is an open standard, actually... or, rather, has been for a little less than a year now.

See Wikipedia for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF

I stand corrected. And I just downloaded your 'Art of War' PDF and it does look fantastic. But let me ask you this, why, if it just a matter of correct formatting, do we get so many badly put together PDF's (especially from Publishing houses)? Are they (as I think someone else suggested) just "Printing to PDF" rather than taking the time to do it correctly, or is there some other reason I'm not aware of?

[dmaul1114]

A lot of it is probably just laziness. I've not dealt with an PDF ebooks yet, but I deal with PDFs of scholarly journal articles all the time, and it seems the bulk of them are just scanned images of the printed pages. Of course a lot of them are older articles that the publishers probably didn't have an electronic copy of to make into a more e-reader friendly format and just had to scan the old journal.

I just print them out as I mark the hell out of them and find it easier to do on paper. Maybe some day when there's an A4 sized reader out with a touch screen that you can write on with a stylus just as easily and lag free as you can with a printout and a pin I'll give electronic versions of them another go.

[Jaime_Astorga]

Originally Posted by mjh215

Just out of curiosity, are the eBooks you are reading in PDF format novels & simple text based non-fiction or are they image laden technical manuals, textbooks and the like?

-MJ

Both, really. Although novels and simple text are in the majority.

[Elfwreck]

I voted "Other"--I prefer Word or HTML, and then I can convert it to whatever device I'm reading on at the time.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I stand corrected. And I just downloaded your 'Art of War' PDF and it does look fantastic. But let me ask you this, why, if it just a matter of correct formatting, do we get so many badly put together PDF's (especially from Publishing houses)? Are they (as I think someone else suggested) just "Printing to PDF" rather than taking the time to do it correctly, or is there some other reason I'm not aware of?

Thanks! I'm glad you like it.

I suspect the reasons are:

- Many do just "print to PDF".

- Few publishers have competent staff to handle the generation of eBooks--most of said staff may well have less understanding and know-how than your average mobileread.com member. (Which does not mean to be a swipe--merely pointing out a paid professional should be more knowledge and capable than an enthusiastic amateur.)

- Plus, if the PDF is not from a eBook reader specific/targeted website, it may have intentionally been aimed at people either reading on their computers or printing to letter/A4 size paper sheets. My "Art of War" (original book size) PDF saw more than 3000 downloads since February. I hope, but I am not convinced, it will get as many downloads of the eBook reader targeted versions (PDF or Mobipocket or ePub) anywhere near as quickly. If a publisher is using the PDF as a promotional tool for their dead-tree book, targeting people unlikely to buy that paperback book might not seem that attractive.

I think once publishers start taking eBook reader devices seriously, the quality of books will rise considerably.

[=X=]

Originally Posted by mjh215

Actually, I tend to think the opposite. That in general the people who write surveys DO think them out. In such a way that they support the conclusion they want.

I'll have to agree with you. My comment was targeted against pure science where the survey is striving for unbiased data.

But there is always the marketing side that tries to manipulate data to their favor.

Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga

I use a netbook for eBook reading and I prefer PDFs, so maybe you are right and a lot of other people think that way.

Then again, I am also partial to txt. It's so... minimalist.

Yep me to before I bought an eBook the few ebook I read where always in PDF format. I still read PDf formatted books but prefer other formats over PDF.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I'm really interested in how you think it might go with PDF. At the moment it annoys me to no end when I get hold of an A4 sized PDF and try to read it on my Sony.

Do you think there might be a time when PDF's, no matter the size of the original document, will have a true reflow capability across the board? (without the original layout being messed up). Is there a possibility that PDF will become the 'only' format for various types of electronic documents? What do you think the future holds for PDF as say compared to ePub and other formats?

I only ask because I don't know enough about PDF and the possibilities of that format.

I think there has a been a misunderstanding.

My comment is more targeted to you comment that PDF will die. I don't think PDF will die. I think ePUB will bite greatly into the PDF market share but PDF will still be a prominent format.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Do you think there might be a time when PDF's, no matter the size of the original document, will have a true reflow capability across the board? (without the original layout being messed up).

Yes I do, that is what I meant by Adobe making their Digital Editions API more robust. Right now Adobe does reflow very good with the Pocket PC platform. Tables images, graphics and text reflow wonderfully. It's still not as good as the original layout but looks as good as MOBI/LIT/ePUB. Now that they are leasing their API there will be a consistent amount of quality across the eBook readers. In the past devices that chose to reflow PDF had to user their own technology. Not anymore.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Is there a possibility that PDF will become the 'only' format for various types of electronic documents? What do you think the future holds for PDF as say compared to ePub and other formats?

No I don't think PDF will become the only format. I think other formats like ePUB and MOBI closing the gap. My real point is PDF is still a viable format that will be around for a while.

PDF strength is it's weakness and this is where reflowable formats like MOBI and ePUB come in. Personally I see PDF losing more market share to these formats.

What I see is PDF will mostly dominate the complex layout eBooks like text books and ePUB/MOBI will dominate chapter books.

But just think right now screens are expensive so they are small. This makes reflowable PDF extremely important. But say somewhere in the near future you can pickup an eBook reader that is 10" for about $10-$20. Will reflowable be important?


=X=

[ahi]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Maybe some day when there's an A4 sized reader out with a touch screen that you can write on with a stylus just as easily and lag free as you can with a printout and a pin I'll give electronic versions of them another go.

A4 is actually too large for a nicely typeset book. Too wide, mostly. On such a device fully typeset books would either have to be viewed landscape (two conceptual pages, facing one another, on one "physical page") or would be multicolumn (which is still suboptimal because of not wide enough but overly long columns).

For profile (as opposed to landscape) reading, I think 6 inch by 9 inch is workable for just about any type of book. Not too wide for single column text, but wide enough for two thin columns (like in dictionaries) as well as inset pictures and other typographic complexities.

Also, 6x9 is the sort of medium size for books... so books are either a little bigger or a little smaller (unless they're huge photo coffee-table books) and ought to be adjustable to a slightly different paper/screen size without too much pain.

[dmaul1114]

Yeah, for books I'd probably always want a kindle sized reader as portability is key.

Some type of A4 (or close) touch screen tablet device I'd solely use for Academic PDFs where I don't care at all about the typesetting etc. I just need the text, and more importantly, the tables and figures to display as intended and to have the ability to underline/highlight things and jot notes in the margins just as quickly and easily as I can with printouts. Anything less, and I just continue to stick with printouts.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by =X=

But say somewhere in the near future you can pickup an eBook reader that is 10" for about $10-$20. Will reflowable be important?


=X=

You bring up an interesting point there. One that I'm not sure I could take a guess at. I know I, personally, don't want a 10" reading device, just because of size. But then again I don't want a 15" laptop (I have an 11") and they're by far the most popular range.

I suppose I'm just trying to get my head around the whole PDF being 'crappy' angle. Why didn't the major publishers push for PDF (sized correctly) when ereaders were first introduced? Why would Sony back ePub if they could just as easliy license and affix DRM to PDF (an already marketible and known format)? Where are Adobe in all this and why haven't they been more agressive in placing PDF as the format for ebooks?

There's a lot of questions in my mind, and not nearly enough answers.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yeah, for books I'd probably always want a kindle sized reader as portability is key.

Some type of A4 (or close) touch screen tablet device I'd solely use for Academic PDFs where I don't care at all about the typesetting etc. I just need the text, and more importantly, the tables and figures to display as intended and to have the ability to underline/highlight things and jot notes in the margins just as quickly and easily as I can with printouts. Anything less, and I just continue to stick with printouts.

How about something foldable that normally functions as a quasi-two-page eBook reader, but, for documents that necessitate it, you can have it "click" straight/flat to a full A4/letter size view.

Ok. Now where's my million dollars?

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by =X=

... But say somewhere in the near future you can pickup an eBook reader that is 10" for about $10-$20. Will reflowable be important?


=X=

Bingo

My whole point is, that as larger screens become standard, and color enters the market, a format that can handle very complex static layouts, such as magazines, will become dominant. And it will have to handle reflow for simple text on smaller screens.

The only reason I am arguing for PDF is, that the earlier a single format is established, the sooner the general public will embrace it, and publishers will be more apt to spend the resources to output to it. But it has to be a format which supports everything, from the very simple, to the very complex.

And PDF is the only one I currently know of, that can handle all of it. You can tag it, you can embed video and links into it, you can embed fonts, you can search within it, you can set the layout, or make it reflowable.... It supports both Mac and PC (stuff like DRM-ed .mobi doesn't.)

I wish there was something open-source like it, but there isn't.

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by ahi

How about something foldable that normally functions as a quasi-two-page eBook reader, but, for documents that necessitate it, you can have it "click" straight/flat to a full A4/letter size view.

Ok. Now where's my million dollars?

I'd prefer a larger, one screen tablet. Ideally it wouldn't be just a reader, but also could do movies, internet, games etc. I'm not interested enough in a PDF reader for my academic articles to buy a dedicated device for reading them.

It could be an LCD or OLED screen or something, I don't need e-ink in such a device as I'd rarely ever read anything on it for more than an hour. So I'm intrigued by the rumored Apple tablet device and any subsequent devices from the competition. I'd love some kind of multimedia table that I could carry around in place of laptop.

[ahi]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Why didn't the major publishers push for PDF (sized correctly) when ereaders were first introduced? Why would Sony back ePub if they could just as easliy license and affix DRM to PDF (an already marketible and known format)? Where are Adobe in all this and why haven't they been more agressive in placing PDF as the format for ebooks?

Major publishers (in the anglosphere) may well consider a book that only sells a few thousand copies in its lifetime a failure. The (relatively speaking) negligible additional sales prospects to eBook device owners are simply not sufficient to motivate them to do a great job.

The 2 hours required to create half a dozen custom PDFs may well be 2 hours more than they want to spend on a title that has (by their estimate) already run its course (i.e.: most of their titles). They are too often near-constantly chasing the next Harry Potter to give a damn about how professional looking their backlist titles are on devices owned by a negligible percentage of their target audience.

Why would Sony support ePubs instead of pushing PDF files? I am guessing because they realize publisher will not make the proper effort, and their sales (particularly that of their hardware) does more greatly depend on how tolerable the reading experience is. Sony sees that getting publishers to make eBooks great is not possible, so it's trying to facilitate their being made good enough that people like us keep evangelizing the hardware.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Jaime_Astorga

I use a netbook for eBook reading and I prefer PDFs, so maybe you are right and a lot of other people think that way.

Then again, I am also partial to txt. It's so... minimalist.

If your Netbook runs Windows, then you too can prefer ePub as it will run actually better then PDF.

[JSWolf]

When larger screens do hit the market, I think ePub will be even more important. So even if your current format of choice is not ePub, vote for ePub anyway. It will help get possibly better formatted eBooks then is possible with Mobipocket.