George R.R. Martin Gives Quick Update on Winds of Winter Progress

[MSWallack]

Originally Posted by Wiggo

You’re confusing quantity with quality — a typical mistake. Incidentally, he only sold over 90% of his books after that lousy TV series started.

No, actually, I'm not confusing quantity with quality; I personally think his books are excellent, as do many others. There is a reason that Time Magazine referred to Martin as the "American Tolkien".

You don't like him. Fine. We get that. But the fact that you don't like him doesn't mean that he is a "failed" writer. If the goal of writing is to entertain, he has certainly done that; if the goal is to sell books, he's done that too. The only measure by which he has "failed" is to entertain you. Nor, for that matter, does your dislike of the TV series mean that it is "lousy". Again, while you accuse me of confusing quantity with quality, you seem to confuse objective facts with your own personal opinions and biases.

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Same. But then I don't have anyone waiting for me to do it. It's solely my own personal business. Once you've got waiting fans, it's no longer solely your own business if and when you do something; there are expectations. The correct thing to do in such a situation would be to admit you've lost the drive and say something like "it's not likely I'll finish this, but not entirely impossible". Yes, some fans would be indignant or angry, but I think most folks would understand. It's certainly better than to leave people hanging for decades.

Still, very few authors do this, as I said. And I'm not sure I'd have the courage to do it myself, if I had a lot of expectant fans. Do as I say, not as I do...

I don't disagree. I think it would be much fairer to the fans to make a more definitive statement, much as you say. He might be afraid of fan backlash affecting other projects. I wouldn't blame him for that. Nor do I blame him if he's lost the drive, the plot, or just written his series into a corner he doesn't feel up to writing it out of.

I'll appreciate what he's done to date, re-read at some point, enjoy it again, and that's that.

However, anyone who is seriously hanging on the arrival of the next book at this late date needs to stop kidding themselves and move on. Life's short, life happens, we don't always get what we want. A book series, a TV-series should not be critical mass to anyone. (Melanie Rawn and the non-existence of The Captal's Tower, comes to mind as a disappointment I've somehow managed to live through since the late 1990s...)

Sometimes, things can't be helped. Sue Grafton died. I loved that series, I wanted to see "Z" and beyond if the Kinsey series went there, but it was not to be. It has not affected my happiness in life whatsoever.

Fans can get a bit too crazed sometimes.

[Sirtel]

Yeah, I could also name several series I liked that were cut short for various reasons (the author died, had health problems or just lost interest, the publisher ditched the series for not selling well enough and so on). Shit happens, but life goes on, there are so many other books to enjoy.

[Wiggo]

Originally Posted by MSWallack

No, actually, I'm not confusing quantity with quality; I personally think his books are excellent, as do many others. There is a reason that Time Magazine referred to Martin as the "American Tolkien".

Ooooh, „American Tolkien“ by Time Magazine.

You don't like him. Fine. We get that. But the fact that you don't like him doesn't mean that he is a "failed" writer. If the goal of writing is to entertain, he has certainly done that; if the goal is to sell books, he's done that too. The only measure by which he has "failed" is to entertain you. Nor, for that matter, does your dislike of the TV series mean that it is "lousy". Again, while you accuse me of confusing quantity with quality, you seem to confuse objective facts with your own personal opinions and biases.

You’ve spectacularly missed the point. My criticism has nothing to do with whether I like him or his writing, but with the simple fact that after thirty years he still hasn’t managed to finish his damn work.

And if you can’t even grasp something as simple as that, there really isn’t much point in continuing this discussion.

[jackm8]

GRRM is just product of the times. Fifty years ago he would have to keep writing Asoiaf, simply for the money. Now every half-baked writer nets millions simply from tv right. So he can develop hobbies and phobias and go on conventions for years, without writting a single page, and his financial situation won't be worse. In the past you had best selling writers that had to write, just for sustenance.

[rantanplan]

Matt Dinniman said about his Dungeon Crawler Carl series that him being out of a job and his family short from starving was a great motivator for him during COVID. He wrote like a madman. Not very healthy of course.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by jackm8

Now every half-baked writer nets millions simply from tv right.

The vast majority of authors, even successful ones, have day jobs or depend on a spouse with a steady income. The ones I follow on social media are worried about house renovation emergencies, run go fund mes when they get serious illnesses (if they're from USA), and look forward to a 2000$ settlement from Anthropic's theft.

[DNSB]

I have to agree with hildea. Most of the authors I know are not raking in millions. They are lucky if they are raking in toonies. It hasn't changed much since H. Beam Piper was shooting pigeons to have something to eat.

There are authors who are financially successful but they are rarer than lottery winners.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by jackm8

GRRM is just product of the times. Fifty years ago he would have to keep writing Asoiaf, simply for the money. Now every half-baked writer nets millions simply from tv right. So he can develop hobbies and phobias and go on conventions for years, without writting a single page, and his financial situation won't be worse. In the past you had best selling writers that had to write, just for sustenance.

There are millions of authors actually alive.

You could maybe count the ones rich from movie/TV rights on your fingers. Always been true. The author of Bambi got nothing from Disney. Even successful authors like Alan Dean Foster are rare and he isn't rich despite royalties from Star Wars (which Disney tried to cheat him on).

Even most full time authors with no other job make less than a living wage. Now on Amazon getting crowded out by AI slop.

Also living authors, more than any other worker, are competing against the work of all the dead authors, both in PD and copyright still available.

Publishers despite being fewer and bigger now take less risks and have added "agents" as a layer to insulate them from authors.

GRRM & JK Rowling are outliers.

[Courant]

Originally Posted by hildea

The vast majority of authors, even successful ones, have day jobs or depend on a spouse with a steady income. The ones I follow on social media are worried about house renovation emergencies, run go fund mes when they get serious illnesses (if they're from USA), and look forward to a 2000$ settlement from Anthropic's theft.

Most books don't make any money and with declining readership that there less middle tier authors than there used to be. Pretty much the only growing sector is independent authors and still most of them are amatuers who sell less than 100 copies. Although, writing books has always been a winner takes all industry and only the most famous authors got rich. Tolkien had a day job and only realized that he could have retired earlier after it was too late. Today, even books that get a lot of press coverage might even be unsuccesful and are more for prestige.

Some stats:https://janefriedman.com/why-book-sa...sible-to-find/

Originally Posted by Wiggo

You’ve spectacularly missed the point. My criticism has nothing to do with whether I like him or his writing, but with the simple fact that after thirty years he still hasn’t managed to finish his damn work.

And if you can’t even grasp something as simple as that, there really isn’t much point in continuing this discussion.

I don't get why some of Martin's fans are so defensive of him not finishing his book and assume tend to frame it in competition with Tolkien. After all, the people who should want him to finish the book are the ones who actually like the series.

[rantanplan]

Originally Posted by hildea

The vast majority of authors, even successful ones, have day jobs or depend on a spouse with a steady income. The ones I follow on social media are worried about house renovation emergencies, run go fund mes when they get serious illnesses (if they're from USA), and look forward to a 2000$ settlement from Anthropic's theft.

A lot of the wealthier ones make their money otherwise. Many authors also have youtube review channels with patreons or merchandise. Like, Sanderson got filthy rich with parasocial interactions, merchandise and special editions. Which wouldn't be that bad if tithing wasn't a thing.

Joanne becoming so rich that she can rage culture wars against vulnerable minorities is an absolute outlier.

[John F]

Originally Posted by Courant

...

I don't get why some of Martin's fans are so defensive of him not finishing his book and assume tend to frame it in competition with Tolkien. After all, the people who should want him to finish the book are the ones who actually like the series.

I'm a fan of the Fire and Ice series; I haven't read Martin's other works.

While I would like to see him finish the series, I think that George should do what's healthy/makes him happy. If he doesn't want to finish the series, that's fine by me.

[Courant]

Originally Posted by rantanplan

A lot of the wealthier ones make their money otherwise. Many authors also have youtube review channels with patreons or merchandise. Like, Sanderson got filthy rich with parasocial interactions, merchandise and special editions. Which wouldn't be that bad if tithing wasn't a thing.

Joanne becoming so rich that she can rage culture wars against vulnerable minorities is an absolute outlier.

I get the impression that you don't understand tithing and are letting your emotions and prejudices effect your thinking.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by John F

If he doesn't want to finish the series, that's fine by me.

It's fine by me too. But if he doesn't want to finish the series, the decent thing to do would be to come right out and say so. Rather than spouting tired excuses and coming up with clever names for his supposed stumbling blocks. But apparently, he enjoys the drama of stringing people along too much.

I would actually applaud GRRM if he had the nerve to come out and say what everyone already knows to be true: he hasn't had any interest in finishing the series for a long time.

[Courant]

Originally Posted by John F

I'm a fan of the Fire and Ice series; I haven't read Martin's other works.

While I would like to see him finish the series, I think that George should do what's healthy/makes him happy. If he doesn't want to finish the series, that's fine by me.

He is a grown man and wealthy too, he can look after himself. It isn't like finishing the series would be unhealthy. I am pretty sure he just can't do it. He doesn't know how to end it.