New Windows Kindle app announced; Current Kindle app unavailable after 30/06/2026

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yes. You have every right to believe that your opinion on these things is infallibly correct. Including your implication that you've perhaps followed developments (and the steps Amazon have taken against it) in DRM removal more closely, and longer, than I have.

More closely in recent years, certainly. You've said yourself you're no longer interested in DRM removal and haven't been for some time. I know perfectly well you were involved in it once, when I was still reading paper books. But that was a long time ago, and Amazon's attitude toward it was far more relaxed then than it is now. For many years they didn't even seriously try to close the obvious holes. Now? They've gotten very aggressive with it. Disabling D&T for purchased books, constant updating their DRM for their apps and devices (yes, sometimes almost immediately after a new method has been published, like with Satsuoni and also when Epubor came out with their own method shortly before - Amazon disabled it very quickly), stopping older versions of their apps from downloading books published after a certain apparently randomly selected date, ditching pre-KFX Kindles, replacing K4PC.

It's obvious from your posts you haven't kept track of all these details in DRM development and Amazon's activities. And I'm not saying you should. It's just that it's pretty clear what's going on, taking all this into account.

[gbm]

My personal opinion is that all that Amazon is doing is just to make the "walled garden" harder to get out of.

bernie

Originally Posted by Sirtel

More closely in recent years, certainly. You've said yourself you're no longer interested in DRM removal and haven't been for some time. I know perfectly well you were involved in it once, when I was still reading paper books. But that was a long time ago, and Amazon's attitude toward it was far more relaxed then than it is now. For many years they didn't even seriously try to close the obvious holes. Now? They've gotten very aggressive with it. Disabling D&T for purchased books, constant updating their DRM for their apps and devices (yes, sometimes almost immediately after a new method has been published, like with Satsuoni and also when Epubor came out with their own method shortly before - Amazon disabled it very quickly), stopping older versions of their apps from downloading books published after a certain apparently randomly selected date, ditching pre-KFX Kindles, replacing K4PC.

It's obvious from your posts you haven't kept track of all these details in DRM development and Amazon's activities. And I'm not saying you should. It's just that it's pretty clear what's going on, taking all this into account.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

But that was a long time ago, and Amazon's attitude toward it was far more relaxed then than it is now. For many years they didn't even seriously try to close the obvious holes.

That's where you are wrong. They have always tried to "close holes" Once DRM removal was simple with Amazon devices and nothing more was needed. Then they changed the way the device keys were generated and there was NO method available to remove DRM from Amazon books for a time. Not until a method was found to use Kindle for PC. Then after a while, a method was discovered to use the device details to obtain the key again. There was a brief respite for a while until Amazon introduced the multi-key method that allowed them to cycle through different encryption keys for Kindle for PC whenever they thought the DRM removal was becoming too mainstream.

Just because you weren't there for all of this does not mean you get to dismiss it as Amazon being "far more relaxed about it." There was also the fact that there were more of those who were willing to keep tackling Amazon's efforts to stay ahead. Not like the one or two at a time who keep passing the torch around today. It was Amazon who was playing catch up then. But it was not like they weren't trying. They were simply losing at the time.

And you're right that I have no interest in removing DRM from my purchases anymore. Not for a long time. But that's not relavent. I'm still a programmer who cut his teeth on a lot of this stuff and have not stopped keeping up to speed on the various techniques and efforts. I don't have to actually use the software to stay informed. Especially since folks these days have the hubris to flaunt their code in public repositories where everyone (including Amazon) can casually peruse it on their lunch breaks.

If Amazon got more successful at plugging these holes, a big part of that is because those trying to thwart them became so brazenly open about their efforts and made it easy for them to know when it was time to get more serious.

Casual mass removal with wizzbang UIs and publicly available code is to blame for making Amazon more successful at thwarting drm-removal efforts. But they've never once in their history been complacent about getting ahead of those drm-removal efforts. This is just the same tit for tat stuff that has always been going on.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by gbm

My personal opinion is that all that Amazon is doing is just to make the "walled garden" harder to get out of.

bernie

Yes, exactly. They don't want people to take Kindle books out of their ecosystem. Especially their exclusives, which aren't legally available anywhere else, but are available for free on various pirate sites. Nice retail editions to boot, obviously ripped from Kindle devices and apps. For sure Amazon wants to put a stop to it.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That's where you are wrong. They have always tried to "close holes" Once DRM removal was simple with Amazon devices and nothing more was needed. Then they changed the way the device keys were generated and there was NO method available to remove DRM from Amazon books for a time. Not until a method was found to use Kindle for PC. Then after a while, a method was discovered to use the device details to obtain the key again. There was a brief period of respite for a while until Amazon introduced the multi-key method that allowed them to cycle through different encryption keys for Kindle for PC whenever they thought the DRM removal was becoming too mainstream.

Just because you weren't there for all of this does not mean you get to dismiss it as Amazon being "far more relaxed about it." There was also the fact that there were more of those who were willing to keep tackling Amazon's efforts to stay ahead. Not like the one or two at a time who keep passing the torch around today. It was Amazon who was playing catch up then. But it was not like they weren't trying. They were simply losing at the time.

And you're right that I have no interest in removing DRM from my purchases anymore. Not for a long time. But I'm still a programmer who cut his teeth on a lot of this stuff and have not stopped keeping up to speed on the various techniques and efforts. I don't have to actually use the software to stay informed. Especially since folks these days have the hubris to flaunt their code in public repositories where everyone (including Amazon) can casually peruse it on their lunch breaks.

If Amazon got more successful at plugging these holes, a big part of that is because those trying to thwart them became so brazenly open about their efforts and made it easy for them to know when it was time to get more serious.

That's interesting, and thank you for informing me. I can only go by my own experience, which started in 2011. From 2011 onward, for about a decade, it was easy to remove Amazon DRM, and there were no serious efforts to plug holes like D&T and older Kindle for PC/Kindle for Mac versions. Then at some point that changed and Amazon started to put in more effort again.

[John F]

Has Amazon ever issued a DMCA takedown notice?

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by John F

Has Amazon ever issued a DMCA takedown notice?

Not that I know of. I guess they prefer the code to be there where they can easily see the latest developments.

[lkmiller]

I felt like Amazon did respond to Satsuoni's method when they stopped allowing books like expensive etextbooks from downloading to Kindle for PC. Those were books which noDRM's DeDRM never worked on, but Satsuoni's did.

[odamizu]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

... There was also the fact that [in the past] there were more of those who were willing to keep tackling Amazon's efforts to stay ahead. Not like the one or two at a time who keep passing the torch around today.

I tend to believe there are more than one or two developers tackling Amazon's efforts today, but doing so under the radar because ...

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

... If Amazon got more successful at plugging these holes, a big part of that is because those trying to thwart them became so brazenly open about their efforts and made it easy for them to know when it was time to get more serious.

Casual mass removal with wizzbang UIs and publicly available code is to blame for making Amazon more successful at thwarting drm-removal efforts ...

[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Yes, exactly. They don't want people to take Kindle books out of their ecosystem. Especially their exclusives, which aren't legally available anywhere else, but are available for free on various pirate sites. Nice retail editions to boot, obviously ripped from Kindle devices and apps. For sure Amazon wants to put a stop to it.

Ironically, I see people on reddit suggest using pirate sites instead of trying to strip the DRM off their legally-purchase Kindle titltes. It's a damn circle.

The founder of Valve Software (and the Steam platform) once said that piracy is a problem of convenience. Amazon ought to take a look.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by ownedbycats

Ironically, I see people on reddit suggest using pirate sites instead of trying to strip the DRM off their legally-purchase Kindle titltes.

There is some perverse logic behind this. One doesn't have to support it to understand it. It was quite predictable.

[Sirtel]

Amazon is probably hoping that if they close all loopholes for DRM removal, there will be no more pirate copies of their exclusives. Will they manage to do that? Time will tell.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Amazon is probably hoping that if they close all loopholes for DRM removal, there will be no more pirate copies of their exclusives. Will they manage to do that? Time will tell.

The ultimate problem for them is, "If you can see it, you can copy it." There's really no way around this. They can make copying more involved and less convenient, but they can't totally stop it. The problem they will encounter, is that what they consider "illegal copying" their customers may consider "normal use". Businesses and their customers are struggling with defining that line right now. It's not going to be decided via a one-sided mandate. But if it were to come down to one side or the other being able to make the mandate, I'm betting the customer side would win.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by haertig

But if it were to come down to one side or the other being able to make the mandate, I'm betting the customer side would win.

Hardly – ​​because they are not in agreement regarding the procedures.

[nana77]

Originally Posted by haertig

The ultimate problem for them is, "If you can see it, you can copy it." There's really no way around this. They can make copying more involved and less convenient, but they can't totally stop it. The problem they will encounter, is that what they consider "illegal copying" their customers may consider "normal use". Businesses and their customers are struggling with defining that line right now. It's not going to be decided via a one-sided mandate. But if it were to come down to one side or the other being able to make the mandate, I'm betting the customer side would win.

I don't think it ever, in real World, will happen.
And I don't also judge who's feel fine with that policy, because there might be one thousand of reasons it can be "fine" for many anyway. Thought that if the answer is just don't buy it, I guess that's the simplest. E.g. that problem to me doesn't bothers and it costs nothing not to get there.