Amazon discontinuing support for older Kindles in May

[DiapDealer]

I have no doubt that DRM plays a big part, but I also have no doubt that maintaining a 2-format infrastructure and conversion/submission/delivery pipeline carries a pricetag that is not small. The demise of the mobi format was always going to happen regardless of DRM. Devices that can only use mobi were always going to get the axe some time. I'm actually surprised they stayed with it/them for as long as they have.

[Sats]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I have no doubt that DRM plays a big part, but I also have no doubt that maintaining a 2-format infrastructure and conversion/submission/delivery pipeline carries a pricetag that is not small. The demise of the mobi format was always going to happen regardless of DRM. Devices that can only use mobi were always going to get the axe some time. I'm actually surprised they stayed with it/them for as long as they have.

Which would have been more convincing if they did not still send Mobi (or is it AZW3?) and, apparently, topaz to PC on some new titles. It is seemingly random, but it still happens, while the same book on Android might be KFX. I guess they might ax the other formats once they are done with older devices? We'll see. The older formats on PC, paradoxically, are somewhat harder to DeDRM on newest K4PC versions.

[Regina]

Its not just about the kindles. It is about the Amazon servers. If the servers have to support the kindles, the servers need to enable weak security authorisation. That is a problem for Amazon servers as they become a point of risk. A hacker can imitate a kindle and attack the weak server.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sats

Which would have been more convincing if they did not still send Mobi (or is it AZW3?) and, apparently, topaz to PC on some new titles. It is seemingly random, but it still happens, while the same book on Android might be KFX. I guess they might ax the other formats once they are done with older devices? We'll see. The older formats on PC, paradoxically, are somewhat harder to DeDRM on newest K4PC versions.

Of course that still happens. They're not going be able to eliminate the mobi format until AFTER the devices that can only utilize that format have been phased out. Until mobi cannot be created/uploaded (either on its own or part of a dual format) by Amazon submission tools, and after mobi-only devices have been phased out, there will always be edge cases where mobis get delivered.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Of course that still happens. They're not going be able to eliminate the mobi format until AFTER the devices that can only utilize that format have been phased out. Until mobi cannot be created/uploaded (either on its own or part of a dual format) by Amazon submission tools, and after mobi-only devices have been phased out, there will always be edge cases where mobis get delivered.

This!

Although Amazon no longer accepts the older formats from publishers there are still a lot of older books that to this day are only available in those formats. Amazon converted all of those they could to KFX but that was not possible for many of them. So even after the old devices that only handle those formats are gone Amazon will still need to support reading them, even in the newest devices. Otherwise previously purchased books will become unreadable.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Regina

Its not just about the kindles. It is about the Amazon servers. If the servers have to support the kindles, the servers need to enable weak security authorisation. That is a problem for Amazon servers as they become a point of risk. A hacker can imitate a kindle and attack the weak server.

That's nonsense. However if it was true, the simple solution is the Browser based downloads and then people transfer via USB. Which only ended (for no good reason) last year.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Quoth

That's nonsense. However if it was true, the simple solution is the Browser based downloads and then people transfer via USB. Which only ended (for no good reason) last year.

I agree to your "Download on PC and transfer to kindle" option. It is a good option. Wish Amazon retained the same.

[Sats]

Originally Posted by Regina

Reference : https://www.inverse.com/input/tech/o...blocked-amazon

"It’s likely the older Kindle hardware won’t physically be capable of connecting to the Kindle Store as the summer draws to a close. The original Kindles were all set up to use TLS 1.0 and 1.1 for their internet connections, and compatibility with newer TLS protocols just isn’t possible from these devices."

Um, forgive me for my ignorance, but why? I admit, I did not look at Kindle firmware below gen10 or so (not sure), but most executables there were quite happily running when I just swapped libopenssl to a newer version. Not all, but enough, so replacing ssl version should not really be more than just recompiling, unless ssl was somehow baked into hardware (I guess I cannot discount that?) or if firmware cannot be updated at all. SSL did not get that much heavier, to my knowledge. So if they cared, they would have released emergency patch for the firmware. They certainly found a way to patch firmware without updating it for Oasis devices (to add new DRM)!

I should also point out, that they appear to be running Java 1.7 (do correct me if I am wrong) on the latest firmwares still (even though, once again, their files ran quite happily and with minimal modifications on Java 21), so I am not sure they... care?

Originally Posted by jhowell

This!

Although Amazon no longer accepts the older formats from publishers there are still a lot of older books that to this day are only available in those formats. Amazon converted all of those they could to KFX but that was not possible for many of them. So even after the old devices that only handle those formats are gone Amazon will still need to support reading them, even in the newest devices. Otherwise previously purchased books will become unreadable.

Once again, what exactly stops them from converting all books into KFX, even if they get a bit botched? Their DRM-free epubs are apparently a mess, so obviously they don't really care about conversion quality... Maybe contracts? (And why are some 2026 comic books Mobi?)

[davedeacon]

Originally Posted by Sats

Um, forgive me for my ignorance, but why? I admit, I did not look at Kindle firmware below gen10 or so (not sure), but most executables there were quite happily running when I just swapped libopenssl to a newer version. Not all, but enough, so replacing ssl version should not really be more than just recompiling, unless ssl was somehow baked into hardware (I guess I cannot discount that?) or if firmware cannot be updated at all. SSL did not get that much heavier, to my knowledge. So if they cared, they would have released emergency patch for the firmware. They certainly found a way to patch firmware without updating it for Oasis devices (to add new DRM)!

I should also point out, that they appear to be running Java 1.7 (do correct me if I am wrong) on the latest firmwares still (even though, once again, their files ran quite happily and with minimal modifications on Java 21), so I am not sure they... care?




Once again, what exactly stops them from converting all books into KFX, even if they get a bit botched? Their DRM-free epubs are apparently a mess, so obviously they don't really care about conversion quality... Maybe contracts? (And why are some 2026 comic books Mobi?)

It's entirely possible that it's physically possible for this or that old kindle to have updated software for later SSL versions and that there's no problem with hardware/firmware etc. It's also possible that they can use abitrary versions of java etc, or use, say, 32 bit software vs 64 bit. But they might just have made the business decision that a small enough percentage of users from those old devices are contributing to Amazon's profit, such that spending the money specifically targeting those older devices doesn't make sense for them. I've read with amusement all the wild guesses/conspiracy theories about ads and DRM etc but if Amazon could make money from something, they will. For all the talk of built-in obsolescence, that's just the flip side of how hardware is a lot cheaper now than it ever was (compare the price of just about anything today with what it would have cost 40 years ago, even ignoring the fact that's many times more powerful/higher quality that it was back then). You benefit from the reduction in price but that's subsidized by the shorter product lifecycle (it's on sale for a few years then the next one comes out). Suppose some law was passed specifying that you are to be able to buy a kindle today and Amazon has to support it for 20 years... they'd sell less over time, so the cost would go up, and they'd be reluctant to keep bringing out new ones with colour, larger screens etc because they'd be on the hook to support them all forever. If you're buying a device for £100/150 then you really need to set your expectations for how long it's going to get supported and be usable vs what you expect from anything else. Anyone using a phone/tablet/laptop from 2012? Thought not.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by davedeacon

I've read with amusement all the wild guesses/conspiracy theories about ads and DRM etc but if Amazon could make money from something, they will.

Um... no. Amazon has been trying to close off all the loopholes for DRM removal for several years now, even alienating a lot of their customers in the process. It's not security or supporting old devices/apps. It's trying to stop DRM removal, plain and simple.

[Sats]

Originally Posted by davedeacon

But they might just have made the business decision that a small enough percentage of users from those old devices are contributing to Amazon's profit, such that spending the money specifically targeting those older devices doesn't make sense for them.

Oh, certainly, it is a business decision. Maintenance has some costs, especially in large org. Outstanding maintenance is a liability for the company, so removing it makes sense, as long as risks are considered and public opinion can be managed. I just object to the statement that they "can't" fix those devices. Maybe only those that use 2G and have no alternative, but everything else? They don't want to.

Originally Posted by davedeacon

I've read with amusement all the wild guesses/conspiracy theories about ads and DRM etc but if Amazon could make money from something, they will.

Ads make them money, new Kindles sold make them money (probably), and presumably contracts with publishers that include DRM clauses make them money (and they certainly patch those kinds of DRMs within a day or two. K4PC still cannot download books with "advanced" DRM after I dealt with them). And in general "our DRM is good" is appealing to many large publishers. KU makes them money and becomes less appealing/profitable if DRM is removed. In general, they want to maximize money that certain groups within Amazon get within certain period.

Originally Posted by davedeacon

Anyone using a phone/tablet/laptop from 2012? Thought not.

I have been using monitor from 2009 until 2025 before I caved, since getting more and more adapters became onerous. I still find 16:9 to be too wide.

I used macbook from 2011 until it gave up the ghost in 2024. If its disk survived, I would have continued. iPad, likewise, alcohol damage did it in, 2025 was bad for my hardware... And I take very poor care of my devices. So I assume other people might be able to keep them alive for longer. My sister has something that looks like Kindle4, but I do not know the exact model.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sats

Once again, what exactly stops them from converting all books into KFX, even if they get a bit botched? Their DRM-free epubs are apparently a mess, so obviously they don't really care about conversion quality... Maybe contracts? (And why are some 2026 comic books Mobi?)

Amazon has never been in the habit of automatically converting/updating previously published works in their store. Reformatting and updating is left to the publishers and content creators to initiate. Depending on the original source they were given from the creators, they may not even have the ability to convert everything properly to KFX.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Sats

Once again, what exactly stops them from converting all books into KFX, even if they get a bit botched?

Amazon gradually improved the conversion of books to KFX for years and were able to handle most of the back catalog. For some reason they stopped doing that a while ago. Perhaps they reached a point of diminishing returns.

I agree that they could just do something simple at this point such as ignoring unhandled formatting or rasterizing books that do not convert properly into fixed-layout. On the other hand the code to handle the older formats is already in place and it likely costs them next to nothing to keep it that way.

Originally Posted by Sats

Their DRM-free epubs are apparently a mess, so obviously they don't really care about conversion quality... Maybe contracts?

That is a different case. Making DRM-free EPUBs of a low quality is to their advantage in keeping customers locked into the Kindle ecosystem. (I am surprised that they contain high resolution images. Perhaps they will "fix" that in the future.)

Originally Posted by Sats

(And why are some 2026 comic books Mobi?)

It depends on the reading platform. Amazon recently added some new comic formatting options to KFX. Platforms that do not support those fall back to receiving older formats, another reason for them to keep those formats around for a while. (They could produce different KFX variants for those platforms but that does not appear to be done currently except in regard to image quality.)

[davedeacon]

Originally Posted by Sats

Oh, certainly, it is a business decision. Maintenance has some costs, especially in large org. Outstanding maintenance is a liability for the company, so removing it makes sense, as long as risks are considered and public opinion can be managed. I just object to the statement that they "can't" fix those devices. Maybe only those that use 2G and have no alternative, but everything else? They don't want to.



Ads make them money, new Kindles sold make them money (probably), and presumably contracts with publishers that include DRM clauses make them money (and they certainly patch those kinds of DRMs within a day or two. K4PC still cannot download books with "advanced" DRM after I dealt with them). And in general "our DRM is good" is appealing to many large publishers. KU makes them money and becomes less appealing/profitable if DRM is removed. In general, they want to maximize money that certain groups within Amazon get within certain period.


I have been using monitor from 2009 until 2025 before I caved, since getting more and more adapters became onerous. I still find 16:9 to be too wide.

I used macbook from 2011 until it gave up the ghost in 2024. If its disk survived, I would have continued. iPad, likewise, alcohol damage did it in, 2025 was bad for my hardware... And I take very poor care of my devices. So I assume other people might be able to keep them alive for longer. My sister has something that looks like Kindle4, but I do not know the exact model.

A few responses:
Amazon doesn't say it can't update the old devices does it?
I find it hard to believe publisher are demanding they stop supporting pre-2012 devices because of DRM concerns. And even if they did, Amazon could simply not make those books available in their store and simply put a message "not compatible with any of your devices".
Think you've missed the point somewhat when you talk about old monitors. Same for toasters, kettles, microwaves etc. I'm sure devices exist which run on software now rather than being simple circuits but they're not going to require updates to keep up with the latest bread, water etc in the way that devices which exist purely to consume software/content do. I'm like you - keep stuff going until it literally doesn't turn on. I've used old windows laptops with broken monitors as linux file servers; I've happily used phone roms such as cyanogenmod when Google stopped supporting the phones etc. But the market doesn't work that way. You'd end up paying more for your 2026 Kindle if Amazon were forced to endlessly support every last Kindle just because it was technically possible to do so.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by davedeacon

Anyone using a phone/tablet/laptop from 2012? Thought not.

I bought a Dell laptop in 2011. It had Windows 7. (Laptops for me have only ever been a backup option - I work from home, I have a good desktop computer, but if anything suddenly happens, I need a backup option available immediately.)

So last year I fiddled with it a bit, replaced the old 300 GB HDD with a 256 GB SSD, added a RAM stick, replaced the battery and put Linux Mint on it. It works. I mean right now it has just one purpose (my elderly mother likes to listen to the parliament sessions so it’s the kitchen device to run the stream on the browser when she’s cooking), but it seems quite useable. *shrugs* (I guess there’s the point to be made that it stopped getting Windows updates many, many years ago, but the laptop itself works and is fit for purpose.)

(I guess this is a bit different as it’s not devices directly interacting with internet, but my keyboard is from 2001, PC speakers are around the same era, I still use a HP LaserJet 1010 bought in 2003, and my PC monitor is from 2009. All this is just to say that it’s not necessarily everyone’s expectation that “tech” should just get replaced every few years.)

On a different and more on-topic note, still no email from Amazon, not even to inform me that in a month I won’t be able to access the ~1200 books that I have on Amazon cloud (15 years of ebooks adds up!) on my 2012-bought, Amazon-registered Paperwhite anymore.