Tech V&R Discussion

[Renate]

I watch Arte very rarely (but more than any other video source).
It's multi-lingual, but it's still mostly a disaster.
You can select "multilingual" and you get the original speech, which is in documentaries often French/German/English.
You can't turn off the subtitles, you only get a choice of a few languages and size.
There is no way to say, "Give me the original sound, but only subtitle the French"
You can't say, "Give me the original, unless it's French, give me German."
There are always chunks of English experts who end up overdubbed.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That's the problem right there. BBC have no clue what they are doing in terms of sound. Some of their programs are terrible. Muffled voices and/or effects/music too loud while the voices whisper or are not loud enough. And iPlayer is a disaster sometimes. 128k stereo and some of the downmixes from 5.1 to stereo are very poorly done.

They can't even get Glastonbury to sound good. I've heard some really bad sound from Glastonbury.

They haven't done that training for years. They sold off most of the training centre. Also much BBC production is now outsourced.

What the BBC or anyone else does now is unrelated to when I did training. Modern movies also often are worse for dialogue then 1930s to 1950s.

Live audience pop / rock concerts and especially outdoors are mostly dreadful for sound, no matter how you record it.

The only live music I've liked were orchestral or folk or Tom Paxton. All the rest had poor sound quality and too loud. Dreadful compared to the same artists/groups on CD studio recordings. All of the CDs I have of actual live pop concerts are also much poorer production values than the studio versions.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

….
The thing is, when I watch some BBC programs on Netflix such as some David Attenborough documentaries, the sound is actually good. It's 4K/Dolby Vision/Dolby Atmos.

I just put on Our Planet S01E01. David's voice is clear and the music/effects are not too loud. The Dolby Atmos mix is good. BBC mucks it up so the voice is not as prominent or as clear.

So taking a course on sound from BBC is going to get you very messed up. You won't know how to do sound mixes properly.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The people doing the rubbish certainly never did the traditional courses, or failed to learn anything if they did. A lot of BBC content isn't even made by the BBC now.

Also the original Dolby was for tape and later marketed for noisy FM multiplex links. The consumer Dolby FM never caught on. There was Dolby A, B & C. Look them up. On tape they swapped noise for distortion. Not everything benefited from Dolby Noise reduction on tape. The original patents have expired.

All the Dolby systems for digital are gimmicks. Totally not needed. Even the Cinema 5.1 is a gimmick and 7.1 more so. It was proven in 1970s that only four channels are needed and that can easily even in Analogue be expanded to 5.1. With four digital channels (or even specially processed analogue) you can use DSP to drive 10 or 12 speakers.

The x.1 channel was simply convenience for the cinema using loads of simple column speakers with 80Hz approx cut off and a few big bass reflex drivers. Then later home systems with garbage "satellite" speakers or sound bars (with cut off between 80 Hz and 100 Hz) the separate subwoofer was convenient. With decent speakers you don't need a subwoofer. Neither analogue nor digital needs the x.1 subwoofer channel.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That's the problem right there. BBC have no clue what they are doing in terms of sound. Some of their programs are terrible. Muffled voices and/or effects/music too loud while the voices whisper or are not loud enough.

You're conflating the technical, engineering side of the audio production with the choice of mix (generally done by producers, not audio engineers). It's a sad truth that the current fashion for mixing is to prioritise effects and music over clarity of speech (particularly annoying for those of us getting on in years and with correspondingly limited hearing).

The BBC sound engineers, at least in the past with the Radiophonic Workshop, were legendary. Any training from that era will have been world-leading.

They can't even get Glastonbury to sound good. I've heard some really bad sound from Glastonbury.

That's because Glastonbury (like most large outdoor venues and festivals) sounds terrible even if you are there.

[nana77]

Originally Posted by Quoth

All the Dolby systems for digital are gimmicks. Totally not needed. Even the Cinema 5.1 is a gimmick and 7.1 more so. [...] the separate subwoofer was convenient. With decent speakers you don't need a subwoofer. Neither analogue nor digital needs the x.1 subwoofer channel.

I would agree .
Analog studio recordings are quite rare nowadays iirc.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

They haven't done that training for years. They sold off most of the training centre. Also much BBC production is now outsourced.

What the BBC or anyone else does now is unrelated to when I did training. Modern movies also often are worse for dialogue then 1930s to 1950s.

Live audience pop / rock concerts and especially outdoors are mostly dreadful for sound, no matter how you record it.

The only live music I've liked were orchestral or folk or Tom Paxton. All the rest had poor sound quality and too loud. Dreadful compared to the same artists/groups on CD studio recordings. All of the CDs I have of actual live pop concerts are also much poorer production values than the studio versions.

I disagree about outdoor concerts sounding dreadful. Sky Arts can broadcast the Isle of Wight Festival pretty well. The sound is a lot better then Glastonbury.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jbjb

The BBC sound engineers, at least in the past with the Radiophonic Workshop, were legendary. Any training from that era will have been world-leading.

The best thing Radiophonic Workshop has done is the Hitchhicker's Guide to the Galaxy series radio productions.

[Renate]

Originally Posted by Quoth

The only live music I've liked were orchestral or folk or Tom Paxton.

Somehow I knew that you were an old folkie.

Are you going away with no word of farewell?

Have you been to Cropredy? I was once.

[JSWolf]

I've heard lots of concerts at the Hatch Shell in in Boston and they sounded good.

BBC has gotten worse instead of better for sound. iPlayer is a joke because they take 5.1 mixes with a higher bitrate and do one heck of a bad job of downgrading the sound to 128K stereo.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've heard lots of concerts at the Hatch Shell in in Boston and they sounded good.

I can't imagine why a stage designed and constructed specifically for concert acoustics sounds better than one designed to cram in as many loudspeakers as possible.

Though I am told that the acoustics at Glasto have been getting better with the newer stages and tech.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by nana77

I would agree .
Analog studio recordings are quite rare nowadays iirc.

Rare even 20 years ago.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

…
BBC has gotten worse instead of better for sound. iPlayer is a joke because they take 5.1 mixes with a higher bitrate and do one heck of a bad job of downgrading the sound to 128K stereo.

Because it's run by bean counters and most has been outsourced for years now.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Renate

Somehow I knew that you were an old folkie.

Have you been to Cropredy? I was once.

Actually I listen to a lot of Jazz, some rock / pop (maybe no recent stuff), some current Irish music on Clare FM.

Not much listened to folk for many years. I used to listen to Travelling Folk on Radio Scotland. Used to have reasonable AM reception in Limerick. The RS on Satellite tended to have a different program. I was once at a Tom Paxton concert and I think he played "When Princes Meet" on my request.
Long ago I listened to Horslips and Fairport Convention as well as Abba, Blondie and Beatles.

No idea what Cropredy is.

[Renate]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Long ago I listened to Horslips and Fairport Convention...

OMG, Horslips! That brings back memories. "Trouble (with a Capital T)", "Guests of the Nation", "Ghosts"...

Originally Posted by Quoth

No idea what Cropredy is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairpo...edy_Convention

I was big into Fairport, Richard w/wo Linda Thompson, Pentangle.

[JSWolf]

A lot of music these days is actually a wall of noise. The dynamic range has been so squashed, that it's very difficult to hear the individual instruments. And because of the squashed dynamic range, the music is more of a wall of sound then music.

I think we need to talk to the performers to get them to realize how bad their music sounds and to get them to demand that music go back to the way it was recorded in the 70s/80 with proper dynamic range where you could hear the music properly.