Tech V&R Discussion [was: USB Power]

[ratinox]

But there are multiple specs. No-one is enforcing use of just one spec. Also the millions of devices out there.

There is one spec from the USB-IF: USB Power Delivery. USB PD has a series of power profiles:

Up to 60W: 5V/9V/15V/20V at up to 3 Amps. This profile subsumes legacy USB power including the formerly ubiquitous 5V at 0.5A.

Above 60W to 100W: 20V at up to 5 Amps.

Above 100W to 240W: 28V/36V/48V at up to 5 Amps.

So you need 2 or 3 chargers when you travel?

No. I need one though technically two:

My 75W 5-port (3-port is a mistake) travel adapter has two USB-A and three USB-C power ports. I can charge my iPhone (20W), my iPad (30W), my Kobo (2.5W) simultaneously. I can run and charge my Steam Deck (45W) but I need to disconnect the iPad. A previous notebook of mine draws 60W USB PD and can run from this adapter though with little else. I also have a pocket-sized travel router (think Raspberry Pi firewall box) (15W). Also my watch charging puck. That's seven devices powered by one travel adapter though not simultaneously.

My current notebook draws 100W USB PD so I need a separate power supply for it.

I also have a 100W power bank with two USB-A and two USB-C power ports. It can simultaneously power and charge up to four devices up to a total of 100W. It automatically switches each port to match the power draw.

I don't travel with the Steam Deck but everything else goes into the tech bag with the two power supplies and bank, USB cables, and a compact power strip with a 1 meter cord because hotel power outlets can be inconveniently located.

Why is it that USB-C devices can be all over the place and also non-standard? (rant, rant)

Very few are so badly off spec that it's a problem, Nintendo Switch being one of the most egregious, but add your not-USB-C cable to that short list.

[issybird]

Sigh. This might not have been a vent & rant, but it's most assuredly not a general discussion about ereading. Non-ereading posts go in the Lounge; if they don't fit an existing thread, start a new one here.

[DNSB]

My current choice for a multiport wallwart has a 65W USB-C port, 3 20W USB-C ports and 2 20W USB-A ports. At one time I had 6 devices plugged in and was drawing 150W and no issues other than warming up to ~40°C. I also have a couple of 20AH and 10AH powerbanks. And yeah, that stubby power strip is also a must have when travelling.

OTOH, my daughter picked up a 5 port wallwart which claims up to 65W on each of the 3 USB-C ports and 20W on the 2 USB-A ports and is labelled as a 235W unit. Sadly, in testing, you can only use 1 of the USB-C ports for 65W. With that load on one USB-C port, the other 4 ports have a maximum of 45W and the unit gets very warm rapidly when the load is ~95W.

[Renate]

As I said in the other thread, you can get a feel for consumer needs by going to a big box store and looking what they have on offer and how it's advertised.

I see everything is listed as high power and fast charging. Data over USB is a very low priority. Apparently people don't do that anymore.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by Renate

I see everything is listed as high power and fast charging. Data over USB is a very low priority. Apparently people don't do that anymore.

Docking stations and HDMI hubs being notable exceptions. Hubs have integral cords. Docks can be integral or Thunderbolt (clearly marked as such) but generally aren't portable so the detachable cords are less likely to be forgotten or lost.

Most people just use "the cloud" for storage or maybe thumb drives.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by Quoth

There are two kinds of chips in cords: malicious ones (such doing wireless) or ensuring proprietary operation (Apple with some cords).

It's not exactly proprietary. It's Thunderbolt which is a public (though not open) standard from Intel and Apple. The controllers in a Thunderbolt cable's plugs manage muxing/demuxing signals on the wire which is how they can fit power, PCIe data, USB data, Ethernet, HDMI/DP and whatever onto such thin collection of strands.

Thunderbolt cable plugs are marked with a thunderbolt icon to differentiate them from USB cables.

[Quoth]

Not all hubs have integral cords.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Renate

As I said in the other thread, you can get a feel for consumer needs by going to a big box store and looking what they have on offer and how it's advertised.

I see everything is listed as high power and fast charging. Data over USB is a very low priority. Apparently people don't do that anymore.

It's what the big stores or the Chinese OEMs THINK the consumers want. Or what they want to sell.

[JSWolf]

USB-C should have been standardized and everything using USB-C made sure it worked correctly. Instead it's all over the place.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Not all hubs have integral cords.

All of the USB-C hubs with HDMI that I have seen do. I'm sure there are exceptions out there but my understanding is that any such kit is off spec due to cable length requirements for HDMI over USB.

Thunderbolt has more lenient cable length requirements.

[nana77]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Portable X-ray to shop?


Oh it's terrible.

I looked at a flimsy 2m USB-C to USB-C cable in the supermarket this morning. Compatible with Apple and Android. On rear the only thing specified was "rated 100W".

Cables are ONLY rated by current, and if for data, the number pairs/revision and maybe speed (Ghz etc). Never by power.

I do like some quotes from there:

Big companies can develop technology. They just can't do it quickly.

It's obvious that biotech or software startups exist to solve hard technical problems, but I think it will also be found to be true in businesses that don't seem to be about technology. McDonald's, for example, grew big by designing a system, the McDonald's franchise, that could then be reproduced at will all over the face of the earth. A McDonald's franchise is controlled by rules so precise that it is practically a piece of software. Write once, run everywhere. Ditto for Wal-Mart. Sam Walton got rich not by being a retailer, but by designing a new kind of store.

https://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html
https://www.paulgraham.com/gap.html

The only thing technology can't cheapen is brand. Which is precisely why we hear ever more about it. Brand is the residue left as the substantive differences between rich and poor evaporate. But what label you have on your stuff is a much smaller matter than having it versus not having it. In 1900, if you kept a carriage, no one asked what year or brand it was. If you had one, you were rich. And if you weren't rich, you took the omnibus or walked.

The same pattern has played out in industry after industry. If there is enough demand for something, technology will make it cheap enough to sell in large volumes, and the mass-produced versions will be, if not better, at least more convenient.

Besides the fact that on megastores there are almost just cheap kind of cables (e.g.), and the firsts results on a big online store might be same thought, imho there is a tendence for what I see to have a different policy. Like I see on two supermarkets (yes, supermarkets as the ones that has foods too) brands, casually both companies from northern EU, where (won't buy them bread, but) when they put an offer for some multiple-plug-adapters, or cables, or similars (also some working tools, screwdriwers, pliers..) they are quite good.
I mean the quality of the plastic, feelings on hands, the rubber, and yes durabilty too, thought.
Nothing in there is casual, and perhalps them decided to change policies about, because after a while people recognise and won't buy a thing that crashes just while pulling it out of the box.

https://www.paulgraham.com/articles.html (wasn't to know there was a book from those).

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

USB-C should have been standardized and everything using USB-C made sure it worked correctly. Instead it's all over the place.

A funny thing about this assertion is that aside from Nintendo and a couple of mistakes on my part, I've had no problems with USB-C devices. They all... just work correctly.

USB cabling has almost always been confusing but that's due to the USB-IF's decision to use friendly, nontechnical labels for technical aspects of the specs. This is finally changing for real: current specs require cable connector housings be clearly labeled for purpose. It will take time for manufacture to catch up but it will.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

A funny thing about this assertion is that aside from Nintendo and a couple of mistakes on my part, I've had no problems with USB-C devices. They all... just work correctly.

USB cabling has almost always been confusing but that's due to the USB-IF's decision to use friendly, nontechnical labels for technical aspects of the specs. This is finally changing for real: current specs require cable connector housings be clearly labeled for purpose. It will take time for manufacture to catch up but it will.

Cables can be total crap. You buy a cable and find out it's a low power cable or doesn't work with the device you have.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Cables can be total crap. You buy a cable and find out it's a low power cable or doesn't work with the device you have.

Indeed, but I categorize this as user error. If I buy the wrong cable then it's on me for buying the wrong cable. I won't blame the cable for my mistake.

I acknowledge the high-speed, super-speed, ludicrous-speed nonsense is a problem. It is one that is finally going away. On spec cables manufactured after 2024 are clearly labeled for capabilities and purpose. Power cables have a wattage rating (60W or 240W) label, and charge-only cables are specifically labeled as Charger cables. Cables intended for data have a numeric speed rating. DisplayPort cables have the DP icon. Multi-purpose cables have multiple icons or hybrid icons which denote capabilities. A 240W, 40Gbps cable with DisplayPort will have 240W, 40Gbps, DP labels.

[nana77]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Cables can be total crap. You buy a cable and find out it's a low power cable or doesn't work with the device you have.

Yes, but - imho - I'd readed it a couple of times in the forums: all of those things lands to the only power, as consumers, we have: likewise to choose what we buy.
So if wanting a good cable, it's not that correct to say: "I went on the shop, bought a cable, and it's crap". If doing a little of search, maybe choosing not to buy today, but doing a personal information about, results on finding (maybe not locally, maybe on online shops, maybe not shipping in 2 hours) the good one cable, or whatever other device - imho.
Specially when it comes to tech. And specially when talking about cables, if them are cheap plastic * in 2/3 years will become quite stiffened plastic (silicone or a better product wouldn't).
Sorry for the long write.
Edit: preceeded.
* (PVC plastic ones, e.g. are the most common),