Conservatory closes its doors

[FizzyWater]

To throw my 2 cents in, I don't spend too much time in the Lounge. I agree that most of the threads seem overly silly to me. Absolutely fine for those who do participate, just not of interest to me.

Besides, I come here to read about the latest ebook news, technology, rumors...and hacks! (I admit it, I want to read my ebooks for longer than the lifespan of my current gadget!)

When the new Conservatory forum was voted on, I had no real opinion, since I don't hang out much in the Lounge anyway, but I watched the "New Threads" topics when it was first opened. Instead of being a forum where people just "stayed on-topic for non-silly threads", it quickly seemed to become a place to discuss "deep things". Again, fine for those who want to participate, but of even less interest to me than the silly forum.

But I've been waiting for the explosion ever since.

I don't think I've been in any online community or face-to-face discussion where those topics didn't eventually devolve into name-calling and arguing.

Some people enjoy the argument - my mom's husband like that. He loves "vigorous debate". When my mother first started dated him, I was convinced he thought I was an idiot. We didn't agree on anything. We "vigorously debated" all the time. I would walk away from the "discussions" shaking from adrenaline overload, and he'd be chuckling.

Years later mom tells me he just "loves arguing" with me. That he absolutely loves that I'm not afraid to speak up for myself and he enjoys the discussions. You could have blown me over with a feather.

How much easier is it to have those kinds of misunderstandings when there are few visual cues (just the little animated smilies)? Where people don't have any reason to assume good will or even simple respect, because it's all behind the "glass wall" of the computer screen?

This website didn't really seem to be a place for those inflammatory topics. But I'll admit I view it from within the confines of why I come here. Books. EBooks. Geek toys, uh, I mean "ebook readers". YMMV.

If there are enough members who really want to discuss the heavy-topics of the day, and Alex is willing, he could always create an "enter-at-your-own-risk, no-holds-barred" forum with a big warning on the front page that brawls have been known to break out. But it seems that Zelda offered a similar suggestion - make a "heavy thoughts" social group and have those same discussions over there.

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to the fact I don't have any problem with Alex and the moderators deciding how they run this forum. It's theirs to run as they see fit. If I don't like it, there are plenty of other places to hang out on the web. Maybe I feel that way because I - like some of the other posters here - have assisted in moderating before (a couple of Yahoo groups, rather than a forum like this). I've seen first hand that sometimes you just have to make a decision and stick with it. There will always be someone unhappy about the results, and often someone obnoxiously pleased (as if they'd "won" some kind of contest).

IMHO

[mjh215]

Originally Posted by tompe

Yes, but not more than what all people contributing here gives. So I really do not like the viewpoint that one person own a forum or a mailing list and can decide whatever they want. Practically maybe one person can make decisions but the participants will leave if the decisions are bad and then it is not the same forum or the same mailing list.

So start your own forum and create a 'community' ownership of said forum. This forum belongs to Alex, just as my house belongs to me. I can invite friends over every day of the week, but after months of those friends coming into my home and discussing topics and perhaps even helping out around the house it doesn't make the house their house. It is still mine, and any day of the week I can change how I approach things. If Bob and Sally start discussing topics that I decide I are inappropriate then I have the right to tell them to stop. People can leave if they want, they can be upset and they are welcome to hate me for it. Other people are welcome to feel that way and leave as well, but the group can't suddenly turn and say, "Oh, we disagree, you might own this house but since we hang out here all the time we can do what we want"

If you started using the internet when News was what you used then it is totally natural that a forum or a mailing list belongs to all that participate. But I know that younger people sometimes take a different view on this.

There are a couple problems here. A privately owned forum is not analogous to a non-centralized distributed network system such as the Usenet groups. They were created in that manner and expressed as such to its user base. And even then different groups were and are 'owned' in the sense that there is a clear hierarchy of decision making and moderation in the group.

And I started on BBS's and Usenet groups and knew THEN that if I wanted decision making abilities that I could chose to run my own. I started a couple groups and SysOp'd and CoSysOp'd a few boards. I never once felt entitled to someone else's creation. And before you claim different 'open' groups left that open to me and the community, those rules and options were laid out BY the creators, in this case mainly a group of students or staff at a University or Universities. And later by private individuals and companies.

I think the opposite is true of your 'young people' statement. It is more of a modern attitude of community entitlement to a private entity's property. I no more own a 'piece' of MobileRead by my contributions then if I went to an art gallery each day and answered questions of the patrons. It wouldn't entitle me to become an official staff member. I also wouldn't have the right to order an owner of a coffee house me and friends use as a public forum to carry a specific brand of coffee. I have the right to make a suggestion, or leave a complaint. Or leave and go to another coffee house altogether. But I certainly wouldn't have the right to tell said owner what to do.

People have expressed being upset about Alex's decision to close the Conservatory and that is something they have a right to do, but these additional posts of entitlement and the community's 'right' to dictate terms to Alex, or dictate that Alex must justify his actions are disturbing at best.

-MJ

[tompe]

Well if MobilRead is not a community then why is it called a community?

[mjh215]

It is a community, but the community doesn't own the forum or run it... Just as a community can develop around a restaurant or coffee house...

-MJ

[tompe]

Originally Posted by mjh215

It is a community, but the community doesn't own the forum or run it... Just as a community can develop around a restaurant or coffee house...

Well, ownership implies that you can do whatever you want but that is not true if you want to keep it a community. So therefore total ownership is the wrong term to describe things. The forum includes all text people write and the forum belongs to all that uses it. That does not mean anything about the ownership of the hardware running it.

[badgoodDeb]

Originally Posted by FizzyWater

Instead of being a forum where people just "stayed on-topic for non-silly threads", it quickly seemed to become a place to discuss "deep things".

Got it in one.

P.S. Thanks for much for hosting the forum, Alex!

[RWood]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Well sorry Zelda, but that just is not true - try being a relative newcomer to these forums and posting replies in a thread in the Lounge where several long-term members are interacting. True, you won't get any hostility, but it is almost certain that you will be totally and utterly ignored.

Do not feel too bad Bilbo, I have been here for over two and one-half years and there are people and threads where my comments are totally and utterly ignored. It happens. Now someone could make the argument that I am ignoring Tommy's post just above this one. I'm not ignoring it, I'm just responding to your earlier post.

The suggestion has been made that a social group could be formed to carry on the discussions if the current tagging system does not work out in the Lounge or for those that may not wish to patronize the Lounge. I just checked and while there are no new groups organized for serious on-topic discussions. There are currently eleven (11) social groups that some may find interesting:

• Ministry of Unutterable Silliness (the largest of the groups)
• Romance Readers Group
• I'M STEPHEN FRY!
• German-speaking community
• Language Lovers
• Book Club
• MobileRead Individualist's Society (only 1 member)
• FSAWSFCMMUSAMRMWTTATMSIWS descent on WorldCon
• Librarians
• Academia
• Português

[Seabound]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Well sorry Zelda, but that just is not true - try being a relative newcomer to these forums and posting replies in a thread in the Lounge where several long-term members are interacting. True, you won't get any hostility, but it is almost certain that you will be totally and utterly ignored.

It's possible to be a complete newcomer and be instantly in the favor of the MR clique. There is probably a typical forum "personality" type that is better suited than others to the MR forum, although what that online personality is is a mystery to me. This is probably true for all forums, and is probably already the subject of many online psychology/sociology studies. In any case, it's quite intriguing that "biases" occur even in online forums where we don't even see each other, and really don't even get to know each other at a very deep level.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by roger the rabbit

That, like life is relative, I would guess he is giving a lot more than you IMHO.

You really think that?

*ponders the time she's been on this forum*

Hmmm, I think everything is relative

(I do think he might give more quality time to it than the average reader, but more time? Not too sure about that... *glances at lilac_jive*)

[nohmi2]

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

Well, here is a secret... I was one among those who felt increasingly anxious about the content of the Conservatory. Should I have ignored my own feelings as administrator of this community? I think not.

Also, I don't believe the Conservatory ever concerned the majority. The majority of MobileRead cares for e-books and e-book readers, I hope.

Okay. I must admit that I also felt uncomfortable at one stage. I had my say and then ignored it. There are some who will go into verbal gymnastics and blathering on with raised voices to get their point across. It happens in the best circles.

Bye the bye, I am also one of those who did *not* contact the Mods.
Every school has it's trouble-makers.

Cheers.

[mjh215]

Originally Posted by tompe

Well, ownership implies that you can do whatever you want but that is not true if you want to keep it a community. So therefore total ownership is the wrong term to describe things. The forum includes all text people write and the forum belongs to all that uses it. That does not mean anything about the ownership of the hardware running it.

I certainly disagree with your views on the subject, but anything more I'd say would simply be a reiteration of what I've already said so it is pointless... Just pretend that I finally posted something that led you to an epiphany that I was correct, while still ending with some form of snarky comment...

Take care,

-MJ

[lilac_jive]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

You really think that?

*ponders the time she's been on this forum*

Hmmm, I think everything is relative

(I do think he might give more quality time to it than the average reader, but more time? Not too sure about that... *glances at lilac_jive*)

I heard my name?

[kazbates]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Well sorry Zelda, but that just is not true - try being a relative newcomer to these forums and posting replies in a thread in the Lounge where several long-term members are interacting. True, you won't get any hostility, but it is almost certain that you will be totally and utterly ignored.

Originally Posted by Seabound

It's possible to be a complete newcomer and be instantly in the favor of the MR clique. There is probably a typical forum "personality" type that is better suited than others to the MR forum, although what that online personality is is a mystery to me. This is probably true for all forums, and is probably already the subject of many online psychology/sociology studies. In any case, it's quite intriguing that "biases" occur even in online forums where we don't even see each other, and really don't even get to know each other at a very deep level.

I must say that at the beginning, I too felt a bit intimidated by the established members whose names were frequently present in the Lounge and other threads. I had to push myself outside of my comfort zone and start making the comments that I felt were relavent to the discussion. It wasn't easy, but I am so glad that I did. I am thoroughly enjoying my membership in this, my first, forum. The general populace here are friendly and encouraging, even when your views don't always mesh with theirs. It is posters like Zelda, mjh215, Am, DixieGal, and so many others that make this a great place to spend some time. And of course, Alex, for making it all possible!

I had a great Principal who once told me to "take 24 hours" before responding to something that upsets or angers you. That way you can respond with thoughtfulness and reason. I try very hard to apply that very wise advise in my daily life (although, when you have kids, it is extremely hard to do sometimes ).

Kaz

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by ProfJulie

I never thought a new forum was needed. All I wanted was a way to post to threads that stayed on topic and did not degenerates into the mindless silly dribble of so many off topic threads. And that is still my fundamental concern.

It's my concern, too, so please don't think that you're alone in this opinion. Many threads start with one topic (e.g., DRM) and someone will make a relevant point and add supporting evidence that their favorite author sells only ebooks without DRM. Then someone will naturally reply to that post and say how exciting they find that author. Then someone else will post how they disliked a particular series by that author. Before you know it, the thread has morphed into a discussion about a particular author and not about DRM. So this is not a problem about drifting to mindless silliness; it's a problem about all drifting from the main thread topic, in my opinion. It happens in most threads throughout the forum. I also think it's natural (human) as it happens in all but the most intensely focused face-to-face discussions. So why shouldn't it be allowed to happen here? I just think there ought to be a better way to deal with it than trying to force people to stay on topic.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

So this is not a problem about drifting to mindless silliness; it's a problem about all drifting from the main thread topic, in my opinion. It happens in most threads throughout the forum. I also think it's natural (human) as it happens in all but the most intensely focused face-to-face discussions. So why shouldn't it be allowed to happen here? I just think there ought to be a better way to deal with it than trying to force people to stay on topic.

Yes, threads drift and on some forums moderator make an effort to split thread when that happens. The problem is not the drift in itself. The problem is that there is a continious conversation going on between a group of people and that is good but it is not good that a lot of threads drift into this continious conversation. Like for example in:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9561

And since it is a continious conversation among active members that just moves around it will generate a lot of postings. So threads will often be drowned by the drift.