Conservatory closes its doors

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Ea

Please, then tell me me where the Conservatory has moved to? Would people particpate in the same manner? I.e. would they feel it was a place for frank, open, serious discussion? I'm not sure.

What I donøt think you have noticed, is what I feel about this decision not being taken out in the open, with the people interested in, and engaged in, the Conservatory. The decision to close it was taken behind *locked doors*. That is what I am primarily opjecting against. That is what makes me (still) so angry.

Ea, i think Lycoming has really said it very well in his post :

Originally Posted by Lycoming

Moderation on any website is a difficult balancing act. Part politician, part parent and a tiny tad of benign dictatorship.

Decisions such as the one taken by Alex are generally made for the benefit of the majority; as such the minority, although listened to and often understood, have to follow the line or march elsewhere. There are so many forums available where deep discussions may occur, this is, as stated previously, a mobile reading forum. Long may it continue.

Alex is doing what he can for the best of the whole community. he has a view of a lot of things which might not be so visible to an individual member. sometimes, he needs to make a decision taking into account what will be best for the community as a whole, and it's not possible to take a vote for everything. i think it's important to keep that in mind.

don't forget you still have the options of using thread prefixes and user groups to continue serious / no digression discussions. i am sure that you will be able to have the kind of discussion you are interested in. please first give it a try before giving up all hope. the discussions from the conservatory have been moved into the lounge ; you can see them there now if you select the "seriousness" prefixe as a filter.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

True, but the conservatory was the cause for various misunderstandings and unnecessary arguments between members as well as mods, which then carried over to other places.

We got a lot of new members here during the last weeks - including many new users from france, germany, switzerland and austria. Could it just be that very diffferent world views clashed in some disucssions more often than in the past? If my guess is true (at least partially) then closing the conservatory will not help - but the clashs will now really carry over to other sections.

I was against the conservatory in the beginning but then i started to use it more often during the last weeks. It envolved to an interesting place with many interesting discussions.

I thought the great community here would be able to handle the current trying situation without necessity for such an decision.

[Over]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Nothing has really changed except the location of the threads.

That's why I don't understand the end of the conservatory. Why make this unilateraly change, if nothing is really changed? It just upset some people who enjoyed the conservatory.

And now that some mods are talking about private messages from people who were upset with certain themes in the conservatory... Did those people had to visit the conservatory if they don't like it? Now, instead of avoiding a board, they have to filter prefixes.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by netseeker

I was against the conservatory in the beginning but then i started to use it more often during the last weeks. It envolved to an interesting place with many interesting discussions.

i am sure you can still have many interesting discussions in the lounge. why not try it out ?

I thought the great community here would be able to handle the current trying situation without necessity for such an decision.

and i hope that the great community here can take this decision in stride, understanding it's the best of the forum overall, and move on to more positive and interesting discussions.

[Ea]

Again, I have read the comments, but no one seems to understand what I am upset about/what I complain about. I am trying again:

What no-one has yet answered; I would like to understand why it was a good idea to make the decision of closing the forum based on private information and never take it public. I am in favour of the Conservatory forum, but I understand that some could have problems with it. However, I do not understand that this could not have been discussed.

Overall: I question why it was never taken up for public debate to close the forum?

Can YOU tell me that?

As it is - in my point of view - those who didn't like it, had all the time to say so. Those who liked it, had no time before closing time. I am feeling put-off and pushed-aside.

I am sorry. Tread prefixes and special user groups do NOT replace a forum. It is a band-aid at the most. At the very least, honest discussion, not this *sneaking* change. Sorry, but I feel it is sneaking, that while others, who didn't like the Conservatory had a lot to say, I just liked it and read it and sometimes posted and didn't feel a need to tell Alex that I liked it and idn't feel at all upset about - I just used the place. And now it's just closed. No say-so at all. No fucking input. I feel it's completely unfair and that that has not been adressed at all.

I'm logging off now for tonight, so you have time to answer.

[lilac_jive]

Originally Posted by Ea

I'm sorry but I do. I do not UNDERSTAND?????

Are you saying you don't understand or that I said you don't understand?

Not yelling or being mean, just confused.

Is your main issue that this didn't go up as a community decision or is it that the conservatory is closed?

*edit, nevermind, you posted the answer to the last question above.

I can't speak for Alex, but I feel that it is likely he didn't make it a community choice because a few vociferous people (not being derogatory) would have been against it, but a large, quieter part of the community wouldn't have said anything. Like I said before, Alex has done a wonderful job running this community and taking a lot of reader input making it the great place it is. I have full faith he did this for a good reason.

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by Over

That's why I don't understand the end of the conservatory. Why make this unilateraly change, if nothing is really changed? It just upset some people who enjoyed the conservatory.

And now that some mods are talking about private messages from people who were upset with certain themes in the conservatory... Did those people had to visit the conservatory if they don't like it? Now, instead of avoiding a board, they have to filter prefixes.

To me, it seems this change will go farther toward incorporating the ideas of all of the members. IMO, the C was very much a private club and very unwelcoming. Any time I stumbled into a thread and had a serious opinion, I was put down as either an outsider or religious freak. Maybe bringing it back into the MR fold will help people re-read and take a moment to think about how they sound and what they write before hitting the "submit" button?

BTW: I never complained publicly or privately. That is what the word "ignore" means.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

IMO, the C was very much a boys' club and very unwelcoming....Maybe bringing it back into the MR fold will help people re-read and take a moment to think about how they sound and what they write before hitting the "submit" button?

You mean people might think twice about using blatantly sexist terms like 'boys club' in a derogatory manner

I know, but it gets my goat! Besides, now there's no Conservatory I guess I can go with no sanctions

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

You mean people might think twice about using blatantly sexist terms like 'boys club' in a derogatory manner

I know, but it gets my goat! Besides, now there's no Conservatory I guess I can go with no sanctions

i don't think dixiegal was trying to be sexist or derogatory, bilbo. in fact her post is one example of why the conservatory was not working well for the community ; it seemed closed and somewhat hostile or unwelcoming to many people for various reasons. if a forum is creating an impression of intimidation among a large portion of the members, that's a sign that it's not good for the community overall. and of course, that very fact is part of what led many people to speak up via pm and not publicly, because they felt too intimidated to say their thoughts publicly.

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Firstly, to Alex:
Many, many thanks for taking a risk and trying the Conservatory. I am sorry it didn't work out, and even more sorry that it caused you and the moderator team problems. So many, many thanks also for dealing with that and taking the step to close it.

More generally:
I'm not sorry to see it gone. I did actually vote in favour of its creation (as explained below), but I really came to regret that. As it took off, I found the atmosphere there to be increasingly hostile and toxic, in some threads more than others. And in some cases some of the topics seemed to have been started specifically to have a dig at people who didn't see things the way the thread-starter did. It should have been a place for serious but civilised debate and discussion, but instead - and quite quickly - it became somewhere that provoked anger, upset and division. And that seems to have had an impact on MR as a whole. I'm hoping that now it's gone the equilibrium will return to MR again.

I voted for the separate forum, because at the time I felt it might be best for the continued health of MR, given there was a lot of vocal discontent with how topics in the lounge can go off-topic, or get "too silly". It's not something I have an issue with personally - and it has proved it's worth in diffusing over-heated threads before now, but if it was aggravating others that much, well maybe it would be for the best. It would mean that the people who had an issue with the "silly" crowd, and the people who had an issue with the "serious" crowd could both have off topic areas in which they could avoid one another, and those who had issues with neither could flit between them. I did have doubts about some of the arguments being used in favour of it being created and the way some people seemed to regard those who didn't stay 100% on topic and serious, but still thought it might be the best solution. I'm not afraid to say I was completely and utterly wrong.

[netseeker]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i am sure you can still have many interesting discussions in the lounge. why not try it out ?

Come on, you know that i'm active in the lounge.
Hm...should we ask DG or ravenne to start a poll about this?

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

and i hope that the great community here can take this decision in stride, understanding it's the best of the forum overall, and move on to more positive and interesting discussions.

Well, i just feel sad about the whole topic and i want to express this. (maybe today is just my annual whining day )
I love this community and i'm sure we will have another endless amount of positive and interesting discussions here but today i'm a little bit worried that maybe *some* private messages to the mods caused a decision which concerns the majority.

[Alexander Turcic]

@Ea et. al.,

why did I not make this a public decision? Please go through the past four pages of this thread and read the various opposing views about this topic. It's symptomatic for a situation where there is no absolute right answer... this is why I made the unilateral decision! I don't want to spend the next few weeks seeing our members argue about the pros and cons of a second off-topic forum section. Please accept that I made an unilateral decision based on my belief that the Conservatory did nothing to support the MobileRead community as a whole. On the contrary, I have every reason to believe that it caused a lot of anxiety and unhappiness (even if some members may have enjoyed it -- remember, I have the whole community in mind).

Also, please understand that as administrators and moderators, it is our job to make decisions - sometimes even difficult ones - on day-to-day basis.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i don't think dixiegal was trying to be sexist or derogatory, bilbo. in fact her post is one example of why the conservatory was not working well for the community ; it seemed closed and somewhat hostile or unwelcoming to many people for various reasons. if a forum is creating an impression of intimidation among a large portion of the members, that's a sign that it's not good for the community overall. and of course, that very fact is part of what led many people to speak up via pm and not publicly, because they felt too intimidated to say their thoughts publicly.

I'm sure you're correct Zelda, I was merely pointing out one of my biggest bugbears, that of casual sexism against men being OK whereas sexism against women is a big no-no (both should be equally vilified in my opinion). As an example, if I had stated that a good reason for closing a forum was because it was 'a bit girly', I'm pretty sure I'd have been run out of town on a rail pretty damn quickly. Not really a topic for further discussion I guess in a forum like this - if only we had an area for serious, non EBook realated discussions.....

Anyway - it was a tongue in cheek comment (even if it does seriously annoy me) and apologies to dixiegal if any offence was caused.

[Alexander Turcic]

Originally Posted by netseeker

... but today i'm a little bit worried that maybe *some* private messages to the mods caused a decision which concerns the majority.

Well, here is a secret... I was one among those who felt increasingly anxious about the content of the Conservatory. Should I have ignored my own feelings as administrator of this community? I think not.

Also, I don't believe the Conservatory ever concerned the majority. The majority of MobileRead cares for e-books and e-book readers, I hope.

[kazbates]

If you all remember, there was a huge discussion before starting the new forum and Alex and the Mods decided to give it a try. The fact that it didn't work for the majority of the people is the reason it was removed.

Try to think of it as if Alex is the president of a country called, Mobileread. We elect him (yes, I know we didn't elect him, this is an analogy, go with it) to make the decisions that are best for the majority, even though a minority might disagree. If you are so angry with the decision that you just can't live with the very reasonable options that have been presented by numerous individuals posting here, I am sure there are plenty of other forums where you can discuss serious topics not related to Mobile Reading.

Kaz