The Technology Vent and Rant Thread

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Not a true ebook if it doesn't reflow.
People need to accept that's not viable on ebooks that might be read on small screens.
Most ebooks are read on apps on phones.

They need to either write an app, or a sensible size PDF for large tablets, unless you are designing postage stamps.

It's also really annoying to read the fine print of a supposed "Kindle" title by an author you know and discover it's a comic book derived from it and it's essentially garbage on eink or a phone. Usually also no D&T. Sometimes not available for real Kindles at all. Amazon have messed up Kindle branding. It should be for real reflowable ebooks only. Print replica and Comics should use two other brands.

They are not the only idiots messing up the concept of an ebook.

This brings forth a question: What is the definition of an ebook? I've thought it was an electronic version of a book, and the specific device that you read it on was irrelevant as long as the ebook is formatted for the device or can be reflowed on the device. Whether it is an EPUB, PDF, text, Palm Format (.pdb), .mobi, or .rtf (among the many formats) makes no difference as long as your ereader can display it. Although I could read ebooks on my smartphone I wouldn't try it because the screen is too small. Likewise, I wouldn't try it on a table (say 9 inch) because it is too large to easily carry around. However, that is just me.

[DNSB]

I think the main issue here is reflowable versus fixed layout ebooks. For most purposes I prefer a reflowable ebook but for some purposes e.g. diagram heavy tech manuals, image heavy children's books, etc., a fixed layout ebook is a better choice.

In theory, you can reflow a PDF but for the most part, the times I've seen that done with tech manuals were kindly described as ugly.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I think the main issue here is reflowable versus fixed layout ebooks. For most purposes I prefer a reflowable ebook but for some purposes e.g. diagram heavy tech manuals, image heavy children's books, etc., a fixed layout ebook is a better choice.

In theory, you can reflow a PDF but for the most part, the times I've seen that done with tech manuals were kindly described as ugly.

And documents from think tanks, quangos, advocacy groups etc whose purpose is to inform and persuade.

BR

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

This brings forth a question: What is the definition of an ebook? I've thought it was an electronic version of a book, and the specific device that you read it on was irrelevant as long as the ebook is formatted for the device or can be reflowed on the device. Whether it is an EPUB, PDF, text, Palm Format (.pdb), .mobi, or .rtf (among the many formats) makes no difference as long as your ereader can display it. Although I could read ebooks on my smartphone I wouldn't try it because the screen is too small. Likewise, I wouldn't try it on a table (say 9 inch) because it is too large to easily carry around. However, that is just me.

A PDF is electronic format of a print book. Fortunately you can now get portable devices with Letter/A4 is similar sized screens. For 20 years we wasted a lot of paper printing them. A compromise was a laptop, though 1600 x 1200 (from about 2002) was far better than later 1920 x 1080.
Smaller PDFs that where used for the paper instruction books by the printing company do work on 300 dpi approx 6" to 8" eink, the 8" being far better. Useless on phones and poor on 6" 167 dpi.

A true ebook has always been reflowable. The predecessor of epub2 was in 1998 and mobi and earlier mobipocket formats (pdb encompassed mobi and other incompatible formats! Palm database) worked on Symbian, Windows CE, Palm OS etc on any size/resolution screen, though very limited formatting. A PDF is a joke on the Palm, though Adobe did a reader.

PDFs are for 100% identical to print and still the preferred upload for either POD or a 1 million copy print run.

[Solitaire1]

Quoth wrote the following as part of a post:

Originally Posted by Quoth

A true ebook has always been reflowable. The predecessor of epub2 was in 1998 and mobi and earlier mobipocket formats (pdb encompassed mobi and other incompatible formats! Palm database) worked on Symbian, Windows CE, Palm OS etc on any size/resolution screen, though very limited formatting. A PDF is a joke on the Palm, though Adobe did a reader.

Concerning the .pdb format, it was created to solve a problem with Palm PDAs. Due to limitations of memory, IIRC you were limited to 4kb for a documents like notes. While that was okay for notes, it wasn't for ebooks.

In keeping with the Palm Philosophy at the time, which was to only put the basic apps on the PDA, and if you wanted more write it yourself (they made it easy to write your own apps). One thing that Palm didn't include on their PDAs was a ereader app. Someone did and created an ebook format that was saved as a .pdb file for ebooks and also came up with an ereader app. Someone also created a desktop application to create ebooks for the Palm (the format was basically a simplified version of HTML, although it also bore a similarity to the Wordstar format). The main limitation of the .pdb ebook format was that it was one typeface for the entire ebook. I used it and I found it an enjoyable read on my Handspring Visor.

Concerning PDF on the Palm, I agree that it wouldn't be very good unless the ebook was written for the screen of the Palm PDA (IIRC it was 3 inches by 3 inches, with 160 pixels by 160 pixels for the entire screen). It might have been okay for text-only ebooks but that's about it.

[Quoth]

I've a Palm Z22 and sync plus app is available on Linux, bought only a few years ago out of curiosity. The apps are also still available to download. I've two ereaders. One only reads one kind of pdb and the Mobipocket seems to read at least two kinds. I made the pdb files with Calibre. Naturally character set support is poor. However you can read a real ebook on it, though it's a bit like reading on a watch in terms of the amount of text.

The Z22 was already an obsolete nonsense when it came out. I guess it only sold at all because it was smaller and cheaper than better screen PDAs or Smart phones. I had the last 486 mono Nokia Communicator in 2000 and later had the colour ARM based on in 2001 or 2002. My last Symbian was an E65 slider which could run DosBox and ereaders, though a totally inferior version of Symbian to the last true Nokia Communicator with S80.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by Quoth

A true ebook has always been reflowable.

Are ePub or KF8/X editions of Watchmen or The Dark Knight Returns or Sin City somehow not e(lectronic)books simply because there is no text to flow? Methinks your defition of "ebook" is unnecessarily narrow.

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I've a Palm Z22 and sync plus app is available on Linux, bought only a few years ago out of curiosity. The apps are also still available to download. I've two ereaders. One only reads one kind of pdb and the Mobipocket seems to read at least two kinds. I made the pdb files with Calibre. Naturally character set support is poor. However you can read a real ebook on it, though it's a bit like reading on a watch in terms of the amount of text.

The Z22 was already an obsolete nonsense when it came out. I guess it only sold at all because it was smaller and cheaper than better screen PDAs or Smart phones. I had the last 486 mono Nokia Communicator in 2000 and later had the colour ARM based on in 2001 or 2002. My last Symbian was an E65 slider which could run DosBox and ereaders, though a totally inferior version of Symbian to the last true Nokia Communicator with S80.

Where Palm went bad was when two things happened: (1) They went to Version 4 of the Palm OS and changed the processor on their PDAs. In an instant it killed the massive Palm app industry since it wasn't compatible with the OS upgrade and new processor, and (2) they were required to change their handwriting system from Graffiti1 to Graffiti2 due to a lawsuit from Xerox (it was like suddenly changing the keyboard to a layout that wasn't as good as QWERTY).

I tried to use the new PDA but it wasn't as good as the old ones. I got so good at writing with Graffiti1 that I could write on my PDA without looking at the device and only occasionally made an error. I tried Graffiti2 but it was lousy, and I tried a custom handwriting program (where I could enter my own keystrokes for the letters) but it wasn't as good as Graffiti1.

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by ratinox

Are ePub or KF8/X editions of Watchmen or The Dark Knight Returns or Sin City somehow not e(lectronic)books simply because there is no text to flow? Methinks your defition of "ebook" is unnecessarily narrow.

The problem with comic books on an ereader is that often the screen is not large enough for proper viewing. Comic book pages are composed in a way where you are supposed to be able to view the entire page at one time without having to scroll around the screen. It's also a case where you need to be able to see the pages in full color.

This is less of an issue with manga, although a convention with manga as that the first few pages are in full color, then it moves to black and white. This lets the reader know what the color of everything is supposed to be.

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

The problem with comic books on an ereader is that often the screen is not large enough for proper viewing. Comic book pages are composed in a way where you are supposed to be able to view the entire page at one time without having to scroll around the screen. It's also a case where you need to be able to see the pages in full color.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm questioning the assertion that reflowable text is a hard requirement to qualify as an ebook.

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by ratinox

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm questioning the assertion that reflowable text is a hard requirement to qualify as an ebook.

No offense intended. I was making a point that some ebooks are not suitable with all ereaders. I agree with you that reflowable text is not a mandatory part of what defines an ebook. To me an ebook is simply a book that is provided in an electronic form that is designed to be read just like a printed book on an electronic device.

Concerning reflowable text, I'd rather have a well-formatted PDF ebook designed for my ereader, than a not-so-well formatted ebook in the EPUB format (with issues such as repeated widows and orphans, excessive whitespace [such as six lines of whitespace around scene break], typefaces that change size no logical reason [such openings where the text is three times larger than the rest of the normal text]).

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ratinox

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm questioning the assertion that reflowable text is a hard requirement to qualify as an ebook.

PDFs exisited before ebook formats and were not called ebooks. The entire point of original ebook formats was reflowable. It was only later that fixed formats to badly ape PDF were added.

It's revisionism and confusion to LATER claim that fixed layout are also ebooks. They are electronic format books.

PDF is from 1992 and no-one till recently called it an ebook format. It was an electronic format for print replica or for actually printing. Interactive forms was added later.

OEBPS was developed in 1998, released in 1998 and developed to epub2. Originally only intended to the reflowable.
Mobipocket was 2000, bought in 2005 by Amazon and used for mobi in 2007 on Kindle. Originally intended to be reflowable.

PDB (at least two Palm ebook formats, LIT/LRF, CHM (used for MS ebooks) were all reflowable formats.

Only reflowable is a true ebook as the distribution can be done with no assumptions as to resolution, font size and screen size.

Any fixed layout other than PDF was developed for commercial reasons, manly for alternate DRM for print replica. Though epub3 doesn't inherently have DRM and adds fixed layout to ape PDF. An epub3 can be a real ebook, but also there is epub3 which are not ebooks, but either print replica or multi-media or interactive.

[DNSB]

For what it may be worth, when I was running CP/M as my main operating system, I read several books that had converted to text files. No reflowing on those but to me they were still electronic books.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Get insights into what you're working on with Smart Lookup

. . .

As I suspected M$ appears to be in the throes of replacing Smart Lookup with some sort of CoPilot thingme. They've removed the entire Research group from the References tab which means the Researcher feature has gone too.

The Copilot feature they've provided is trivial. I think I can see where they're going with it, but why ditch the existing Smart Lookup and Researcher features before releasing integrated AI powered equivalents.

Altman diktat?

[Comfy.n]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Altman diktat?

AI is insatiable... Besides profits, IMO they prioritize market dominance and data collection. I'd hope OpenAI won't become something like the once omnipresent and un-uninstallable Internet Explorer... Lately I'm feeling like "it was good while it lasted" regarding Chatgpt.