Code bloat. What is it? - Page 5

nabsltd · 02-08-2024, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinH

That approach would miss or break ids used by the epub2 toc.ncx which use <content src="blah#fragment">, and of course break the opf guide urls if they used fragments, and any ncx pagelists or adobe pagmap.xml use of fragments.

For me, tox.ncx and the OPF file get the anchors removed from the URLs if there is only one anchor that points to a file. If the content is split to a new file each chapter, then I have yet to find a book that needs the ID...pointing to the top of the page is good enough.

Also, I have seen a couple of books where the actual link in the ToC was to the beginning of the text of the chapter, not the chapter name/number. And the chapter name/number used a graphic that was quite large, or there was a large top margin. On a small screen reader, this caused the ToC to jump to the text, but you were never quite sure that you clicked the right chapter in the ToC until turned to the previous page to see the chapter name/number.

Quote:

Not to mention epub3 external cfi urls that use fragments, external bookmarks that use fragments, javascript uses to dentify nodes in the dom, etc.

For my personal library, I don't care about external links between books, because none of my readers support them. Even if they did, I'd still probably remove them, as I don't have a use for them.

My big problem with IDs is that the obvious ones (chapter, etc.) aren't really a problem. But, I run into books where every element (p, span, h1, div, etc.) has its own unique ID, and none are referenced within the book. I doubt they are referenced outside the book, either. So, they all get removed.

nabsltd · 02-08-2024, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

Since you already referenced Random in Death, can we assume that you noticed that it had a pagelist section in the navigation document and in the .ncx document?

I have seen many major publisher books with anchors like <a id="page247" /> and no reference to those anywhere in any file.

I could, in theory, build my own navigation from those anchors, but the average person buying the eBook gets no value from them.

Turtle91 · 02-08-2024, 12:43 PM

Which takes me right back to my comment that readers/apps/acessibility devices/users can do a search or scan to find those IDs regardless of their link status.

chrisridd · 02-08-2024, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nabsltd

I have seen many major publisher books with anchors like <a id="page247" /> and no reference to those anywhere in any file.

Aren't those part of the Adobe ersatz page numbering scheme?

Karellen · 02-08-2024, 01:46 PM

Does anyone have a link to an ebook with a Pagelist?

Thanks.

JSWolf · 02-08-2024, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paperwhite13

And to answer your question, if there is still code in there and it truly doesn't do anything (as in it doesn't impact performance either), I have no reason to remove it, if it takes time (therefore money, since I'm doing this professionally) to do it.

if it's something like <a id="page 5"/> then it takes seconds to delete them all using Diaps Editing Toolbag in Sigil or calibre.

JSWolf · 02-08-2024, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Which takes me right back to my comment that readers/apps/acessibility devices/users can do a search or scan to find those IDs regardless of their link status.

You cannot search for an ID. It's not something that's possible. If you remove the IDs (that have no purpose) or leave them, it makes no difference to accessibility.

JSWolf · 02-08-2024, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisridd

Aren't those part of the Adobe ersatz page numbering scheme?

Nope. Those are IDs that can be used to build a pagelist and/or a pagemap if you want.

JSWolf · 02-08-2024, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karellen

Does anyone have a link to an ebook with a Pagelist?

Thanks.

Random in Death by J.D. Robb has a pagelist.

The NAV file with a pagelist

Spoiler:

https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/random-in-death

Karellen · 02-08-2024, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Random in Death by J.D. Robb has a pagelist.

The NAV file with a pagelist
https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/random-in-death

Thank you.
Strangely after all this time, I have not come across pagelists before.

paperwhite13 · 02-08-2024, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

if it's something like <a id="page 5"/> then it takes seconds to delete them all using Diaps Editing Toolbag in Sigil or calibre.

No, it takes more than seconds to check which ids are used/referenced and where, and which are not. You asked me why do I need code that doesn’t do anything -- I don't, it’s there because of how InDesign exports it, but why do you think I have to delete code that ultimately doesn’t do anything -- nothing good, nothing bad?

JSWolf · 02-08-2024, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karellen

Thank you.
Strangely after all this time, I have not come across pagelists before.

With a Kobo, if you read ePub, pagelists won't work. If you read KePub, you may not have noticed. Even if I read an eBook with a pagelist as a KePub, I'm not sure I'd know there is a pagelist unless I've looked at the NAV ToC.

For my use, I don't need a pagelist. I don't care that my eBook matches the page numbers of some pBook edition.

JSWolf · 02-08-2024, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paperwhite13

No, it takes more than seconds to check which ids are used/referenced and where, and which are not. You asked me why do I need code that doesn’t do anything -- I don't, it’s there because of how InDesign exports it, but why do you think I have to delete code that ultimately doesn’t do anything -- nothing good, nothing bad?

I've seen some eBooks where this unused code makes it harder to read the code. It's very easy to do a search to see if any IDs are being used. Look in the NAV, NCX, and OPF. Then do a search for # and href. If I missed anything, please says so.

JSWolf · 02-08-2024, 06:43 PM

As for pagelists, this from http://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/.../pagelist.html

Quote:

The page list itself is a list of links to all the page breaks locations. User agents can use this list to provide automatic page jump functionality, or a user can access it directly to manually select the page they wish to go to.

The list of links to page breaks is rubbish. Programs already have a go to function and you'd need to know where to go be it a pagelist or not.

I know a pagelist allows you to match pBook page numbers. But lets say the eBook edition was made from the hardcover. Now in class, the teacher is using the paperback version, you have the eBook and your page numbers don't match. What do you do then?

paperwhite13 · 02-08-2024, 06:48 PM

That doesn’t answer my question

But anyway -- of course the code is harder to read, but that's not the point, epubs are meant to be read as ebooks, not opened and judged for code legibility. If an ebook was already styled to your preference or you managed to style it externally from an ereader with extensive options (like KOReader) -- meaning you had no reason to open the epub code, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a version with ids and one without. And that's what most people do -- they read the book and they don't notice the extraneous classes, or ids, or comments. Because those things don't do anything.

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02-08-2024, 12:43 PM	#63
Turtle91 A Hairy Wizard Posts: 3,291 Karma: 20171067 Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Charleston, SC today Device: iPhone 15/11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire	Which takes me right back to my comment that readers/apps/acessibility devices/users can do a search or scan to find those IDs regardless of their link status.

02-08-2024, 01:46 PM	#65
Karellen Wizard Posts: 1,592 Karma: 9499994 Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Libra 2	Does anyone have a link to an ebook with a Pagelist? Thanks.

02-08-2024, 06:48 PM	#75
paperwhite13 Zealot Posts: 131 Karma: 9236 Join Date: Jun 2020 Device: Kindle PW3 [KOReader]	That doesn’t answer my question But anyway -- of course the code is harder to read, but that's not the point, epubs are meant to be read as ebooks, not opened and judged for code legibility. If an ebook was already styled to your preference or you managed to style it externally from an ereader with extensive options (like KOReader) -- meaning you had no reason to open the epub code, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a version with ids and one without. And that's what most people do -- they read the book and they don't notice the extraneous classes, or ids, or comments. Because those things don't do anything.