Is there really a media query for KFX?

[nabsltd]

Originally Posted by jhowell

@media amzn-et

Forking a new thread from this reply about KFX media queries.

I have a Scribe and Paperwhite (11th gen), and am sideloading KFX files by converting from EPUB to KFX using the KFX output plugin to Calibre. On these KFX files, both devices answer "true" to @media amzn-kf8, and both answer "false" to @media amzn-et.

The Kindle Previewer app answers "true" to both @media amzn-kf8 and @media amzn-et, which tells me that @jhowell was correct, and that "amzn-et" is the right test.

My problems I want to solve:

• I need the EPUB to support EPUB devices, so I need to distinguish between EPUB and Amazon formats. This seems to be handled with current media queries.
• KFX handles things like drop caps differently from KF8. So, if I want to target older Kindles that don't support KFX, I need to be able to distinguish between the two.
• The Paperwhite 11th gen does not respond "true" to any media queries that are documented on the web to work with previous Paperwhites. I'd like to distinguish between the Scribe and the Paperwhite because the Paperwhite has bugs with vertical margins, where the value in the CSS is multiplied by 1.6.

Attached is an EPUB that demonstrates the behaviors.

The first page has 4 paragraphs. The span in the middle of the paragraph will result in italic for KF8, bold for KFX, and underline for other (like EPUB). The first paragraph can have all of the 3, if the renderer answers "true" to all (unlikely). The second paragraph targets only KFX, while the third is KF8, and the 4th is for neither.

The next pages have 4x horizontal rules with (margin|padding)-top of 20%. It's easy to see on a Paperwhite 11 that the spacing is actually about 33%.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

KFX handles things like drop caps differently from KF8. So, if I want to target older Kindles that don't support KFX, I need to be able to distinguish between the two.

When Amazon created KF8 format they added the amzn-mobi and amzn-kf8 media queries so that formatting could be tailored to each of those formats. When KFX was added later they added amzn-et but also made amzn-kf8 apply to KFX format so that books already published would convert properly.

So if you want to target only KF8 you need something like "@media amzn-kf8 and not amzn-et".

Originally Posted by nabsltd

The Paperwhite 11th gen does not respond "true" to any media queries that are documented on the web to work with previous Paperwhites. I'd like to distinguish between the Scribe and the Paperwhite...

In KF8 media queries are handled when the book is rendered on the reading device so formatting based on things like the screen size is possible. However in both MOBI and KFX media queries are evaluated when the book is converted into those formats so media queries that depend on the characteristics of the reading device do not function.

Originally Posted by nabsltd

the Paperwhite has bugs with vertical margins, where the value in the CSS is multiplied by 1.6.

...

The next pages have 4x horizontal rules with (margin|padding)-top of 20%. It's easy to see on a Paperwhite 11 that the spacing is actually about 33%.

One of the features of Enhanced Typesetting as implemented in KFX format is altering some aspects of the formatting as specified by the publisher to better normalize formatting across Kindle books. One aspect of this is automatically changing vertical spacing to be relative based on the chosen font size.

In this case conversion to KFX changes the spacing from 20% to instead be about five lines high based on the current font size.

[Quoth]

And you can't publish KFX, KF8 or mobi reflowable books on Amazon you make yourself. They have to be converted from epub, or much less good, docx.

The "Send to Kindle" and KDP both convert, but might not convert the same.

Best to make ebooks that don't rely on media queries and don't try to slavishly copy paper unless they are effectively PDFs (which are never ever true ebooks).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

And you can't publish KFX, KF8 or mobi reflowable books on Amazon you make yourself. They have to be converted from epub, or much less good, docx.

The "Send to Kindle" and KDP both convert, but might not convert the same.

Best to make ebooks that don't rely on media queries and don't try to slavishly copy paper unless they are effectively PDFs (which are never ever true ebooks).

But sometimes you do need media queries. For example, small-caps vs font-size for smallcaps.

Once Amazon finally dumps Mobi (too long overdue to be dumped), media queries can mostly go.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

I have a Scribe and Paperwhite (11th gen), and am sideloading KFX files by converting from EPUB to KFX using the KFX output plugin to Calibre. On these KFX files, both devices answer "true" to @media amzn-kf8, and both answer "false" to @media amzn-et.

I just realized that I failed to respond to this point.

In order to properly convert EPUBs with media queries to KFX you need to use the CLI interface of the KFX Output plugin instead of the calibre conversion GUI or CLI. That is because calibre's conversion pipeline will remove media queries that it does not know about, such as amzn-et, when it performs CSS flattening.


Added: As an experiment you can import your EPUB into calibre and do a conversion from EPUB to EPUB. If you examine the result in calibre's editor you will see that the Kindle media queries do not survive the conversion process.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But sometimes you do need media queries. For example, small-caps vs font-size for smallcaps.

I thought you didn't believe in smallcaps?

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Once Amazon finally dumps Mobi (too long overdue to be dumped), media queries can mostly go.

Mostly mobi is either only delivered to the the 4 ancient models that can't use at least AZW3/KFX, or a tiny number of ebooks uploaded years ago. They don't accept reflowable mobi (KF7) in Send to Kindle or KDP upload. There is no more dumping of mobi to do.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I thought you didn't believe in smallcaps?


Mostly mobi is either only delivered to the the 4 ancient models that can't use at least AZW3/KFX, or a tiny number of ebooks uploaded years ago. They don't accept reflowable mobi (KF7) in Send to Kindle or KDP upload. There is no more dumping of mobi to do.

There is one more dumping of mobi. Not allowing it as an eBook format to be downloaded or synced for any new eBooks. So no more media query fallbacks for Mobi.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There is one more dumping of mobi. Not allowing it as an eBook format to be downloaded or synced for any new eBooks. So no more media query fallbacks for Mobi.

It's only downloaded for actually new ebooks (uploaded in last few years) for Kindles that only support mobi.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

It's only downloaded for actually new ebooks (uploaded in last few years) for Kindles that only support mobi.

If Mobi was not being made available for new eBooks, then media queries would not be needed nearly so much.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Mostly mobi is either only delivered to the the 4 ancient models that can't use at least AZW3/KFX, or a tiny number of ebooks uploaded years ago. They don't accept reflowable mobi (KF7) in Send to Kindle or KDP upload. There is no more dumping of mobi to do.

Although its usage has decreased there are quite a number of places where MOBI is still used by Amazon besides on the oldest Kindles. Some examples are personal documents read on Apple devices, periodicals and comics sent to e-ink Kindles, reflowable books with audio/video, and as a fallback format for books produced using Kindle Create on devices that do not support KFX format.

[Quoth]

Apple is/was a special case due to browser engine/technology rules. That may change shortly.

Audio/video aren't real ebooks and not KF7 mobi.

Many periodicals and comics are either legacy layout, fixed layout or not kf7.

I understood that Kindle create makes a sort of dual mobi with KF7 & KF8 if not making KFX, but I don't have it now.

I was only referring to ordinary mobi/prc (or encrypted as azw), the basic KF7, used by K1, K2, DXG and DX. A few other models originally have only mobi, but FW upgrades gives KF8/azw3. The default format created by the last Mobipocket Creator. I did also write "mostly".

What Jon wants isn't entirely logical or possible.

[nabsltd]

Originally Posted by jhowell

One of the features of Enhanced Typesetting as implemented in KFX format is altering some aspects of the formatting as specified by the publisher to better normalize formatting across Kindle books. One aspect of this is automatically changing vertical spacing to be relative based on the chosen font size.

Thanks for all the info. It appears that my goal can't be accomplished because of the way Amazon chose to do it.

It's weird that their attempt to "normalize formatting" only affects the smaller device (Scribe margins are within a few millimeters of accurate), and does so in such a way as to reduce the amount of text on the screen...a screen that has less room for text in the first place.

Originally Posted by jhowell

Although its usage has decreased there are quite a number of places where MOBI is still used by Amazon besides on the oldest Kindles.

I've got quite a few books purchased from Amazon that still download as MOBI, even to Kindle for PC, or via WiFi to my Kindles. There's nothing special about them other than the fact that they were first published in eBook form ten or more years ago.

It seems like Amazon takes the file in from the author/publisher, converts to all the current formats, and then sells the book. Later on when a new format comes around, only a limited set of books get the new format added to the download pool.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

It's weird that their attempt to "normalize formatting" only affects the smaller device (Scribe margins are within a few millimeters of accurate), and does so in such a way as to reduce the amount of text on the screen...a screen that has less room for text in the first place.

In this case the size of the top margin is affected by the user's choice of font size. I don't know why they chose to make it work that way. Perhaps they are assuming that those using small screen devices will also be choosing the smallest font sizes for reading.

Originally Posted by nabsltd

It seems like Amazon takes the file in from the author/publisher, converts to all the current formats, and then sells the book. Later on when a new format comes around, only a limited set of books get the new format added to the download pool.

When KFX format was introduced Amazon reconverted books that had originally been published using a DOCX or EPUB source. That included books published using Master MOBI files created by kindlegen since those include the original source files within the Master MOBI file.

Books that were published using a MOBI file created some other way without the original source were left as is.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by jhowell

When KFX format was introduced Amazon reconverted books that had originally been published using a DOCX or EPUB source. That included books published using Master MOBI files created by kindlegen since those include the original source files within the Master MOBI file.

Books that were published using a MOBI file created some other way without the original source were left as is.

Yes, that's all my understanding too. The publish dates also suggest it, as it was quite a while ago they stopped reflowable mobi (kf7) uploads on KDP (I forget when).

The onus is really on the the people that originally uploaded only mobi/Kf7 reflowable ebooks to upload fresh epub, or at worst docx.

Large publishers have a different workflow and don't use the public KDP that anyone can use.

And of course if you use Download rather than Whispernet, you have to pick which registered kindle the file is for. Dual purpose, the suitable DRM keyed to serial number and "correct" format. Whispernet gives KFX, AZW3 or azw/mobi depending on what is.

Other people (not Amazon) offering Kindle files either offer dual-mobi (embedded KF7 & KF8), or old mobi KF7, or azw3/KF8, or epub for "Send to Kindle". They don't know what your Kindle is. These can be PD or copyright bought files, but in either case no DRM.

Edit:
I last bought a computer with Win7 1st Nov 2016 (finally wiped Win7 on it Jan 2017, now Linux Mint 21.2). MS retail sales ended earlier. Oct/Nov 2016 was the last date OEMs sold gear with it. Official support ended in 2020 and people didn't always accept every update. None mandatory. I think it still gets Defender updates and some others occasionally. MS also still activates XP re-installs by automated phone with digits entered on keypad. Some people have stuff that needs XP and a Mobo (needs re-authorised) or HDD can die.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Apple is/was a special case due to browser engine/technology rules. That may change shortly.

It would be nice if Apple would allow apps to contain competing HTML rendering software as is needed to support KF8. Do you have any references for the possibility of that changing soon?

If that does change I wonder whether Amazon would then add KF8 to the Kindle for iOS/Mac apps or whether they would just let it go since they have already moved on to KFX for published books. It is really only personal documents that suffer from the lack of KF8 support in those apps.

Originally Posted by Quoth

Audio/video aren't real ebooks and not KF7 mobi.

Whether or not they are "real" ebooks, Amazon sells books that are labeled "Kindle Edition with Audio/Video". For example, Brought to Life by the Voice: Playback Singing and Cultural Politics in South India. These are currently always delivered by Amazon in MOBI format.

Originally Posted by Quoth

I understood that Kindle create makes a sort of dual mobi with KF7 & KF8 if not making KFX, but I don't have it now.

Kindle Create can now export in EPUB format, resulting in a bit less lock-in if that software is used.

I am unaware of it producing anything like MOBI or KF8. As far as I can tell Amazon's servers produce a MOBI version of books published using Kindle Create by converting from KFX. That is delivered as a fallback in cases when the Kindle reader does not support KFX.

Originally Posted by Quoth

What Jon wants isn't entirely logical or possible.

I agree. It is not in Amazon's or their customer's best interest to do away with MOBI.