Footnote problem in kepub conversion

[Liudprand]

About font size I don't agree with You. The obvious solution is to set the size of headings not too much greater than normal text so when the reader increases the size of the font on the device the size of headings won't be too large.

But many purchased ebooks I have show this problem with headings. If you need larger body-text for reasons of impaired vision, I still don't see why the software is set up up to assume that you want giant headings. Almost like it's mocking you!

ps: about old-style numbers I don't agree with You again but the important thing is that You shouldn't force the reader to see them. A Ebook is not a printed book: the reader have the choice about font (and line spacing, margins etc.) Who likes them can use a font with old-style numbers and who doesn't like them can use a font without them. There are font variants in some font but it is a complicated matter and they are rarely supported by ereaders or app.

I know they're rarely supported by ereaders or apps - that's what I'm complaining about! In fact, as far as I know they're not supported at all (except when the default figures in a typeface already resemble text figures). I'm not suggesting everyone should be forced to use them - I'm suggesting they should be an option for the person who puts the ebook file together, which could then be overridden by the user on their device.

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Really?
Decent free tools are well over 10 years old and much easier to use and better output than Indesign for ebooks, Indesign is a nearly 40 year old concept. Lack of competence and training in the publishing companies is the problem.

It's actually easier than producing a complex paper publication if you know what you are doing.

Sadly @Hitch and I still see Word docs produced as if it's a glass typewriter or Wordstar in 1978 on CP/M. You can't know the horror of it if it's only seen on paper, though paper book publishing is not as high quality as 100 years ago when there were no tools except Linotype (c.1890s) and competitors (c.1914).
The Victorian typewriter only resulted in legible MSS and soon carbon copies and stencils (Gestetner & mimeograph).
Early CRT editors were actually based on teletype systems (see edlin) and then wordprocessing came later to PCs with direct formatting on CP/M and DOS, but had been on minicomputers and dedicated machines earlier. Wordprocessing with Outlining and Styles is over 20 years old, but many people just use the default settings and click on direct formatting as if it's just a graphical version of the late 1960s minicomputer text editors.

Once again, thanks for your lengthy reply - but, once again, much of it is completely impenetrable to me ("see edlin"??. And CRT only registers for me as "critical race theory" ) Again, this isn't a complaint about you response, which I'm sure makes perfect sense; just a (very common) example of how those who are marinated in these technologies and those who aren't often have difficulty communicating. In fact, you could almost say that failure of communication is what defines the internet age!

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

I know they're rarely supported by ereaders or apps - that's what I'm complaining about! In fact, as far as I know they're not supported at all (except when the default figures in a typeface already resemble text figures). I'm not suggesting everyone should be forced to use them - I'm suggesting they should be an option for the person who puts the ebook file together, which could then be overridden by the user on their device.

Hmmm.... so we would have another menu entry to allow for this? What are the chances that the default font supports them? The chances of a user finding that setting and knowing what it means? That level of user is likely to be quite capable of editing the ebook to make those changes on their own or using a tool such as calibre to embed the required style in the epub.

If the renderer and font have support, you could configure the ebook styles to use text figures if they are supported but again for a vast majority of the users out there a waste of time and effort. I've only seen font-variant-numbers styles used in one epub and I needed to test several fonts before finding one that it worked with since the embedded font did not.

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Hmmm.... so we would have another menu entry to allow for this? What are the chances that the default font supports them? The chances of a user finding that setting and knowing what it means? That level of user is likely to be quite capable of editing the ebook to make those changes on their own or using a tool such as calibre to embed the required style in the epub.

Not if it's a purchased book!

I'm saying it should be possible to put ebooks together using text figures that can then be overridden by the reader. Yes, that wold mean adding a setting. There aren't very many options on my Kobo, and I don't think it would take a reader who objected to text figures (which are pretty standard in printed books, so I don't honestly know how many readers it would upset) very long to find the setting. I realise it probably won't happen, but I'm just stating my preference.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Not if it's a purchased book!

Not on paper without tippex and pen. But for personal use of ebook why not? Especially as so many are badly formatted.
You can't copy it to someone else.

[Liudprand]

Basically, text figures and more efficient use of small caps - plus the problem (in my view) with notes and headings I've already mentioned - are the only things I can think of that ebook standards don't currently make easy to adjust. I don't think it's asking for the moon. But that might just be because I'm a professional typesetter.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Not if it's a purchased book!

I'm saying it should be possible to put ebooks together using text figures that can then be overridden by the reader.

Selecting Georgia for old or most of the others for "regular" in user font on device or in app.

Some apps and Mobi devices ignore everything.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Hmmm.... so we would have another menu entry to allow for this? What are the chances that the default font supports them? The chances of a user finding that setting and knowing what it means? That level of user is likely to be quite capable of editing the ebook to make those changes on their own or using a tool such as calibre to embed the required style in the epub.

If the renderer and font have support, you could configure the ebook styles to use text figures if they are supported but again for a vast majority of the users out there a waste of time and effort. I've only seen font-variant-numbers styles used in one epub and I needed to test several fonts before finding one that it worked with since the embedded font did not.

Indeed.

[Liudprand]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Not on paper without tippex and pen. But for personal use of ebook why not? Especially as so many are badly formatted.
You can't copy it to someone else.

I may be wrong (always, always... ), but, as far as I know, it's not possible to specify the use of text figures in a typeface that doesn't use them (or something approximating them) as a default figure style - such as Georgia. Which I hate.

Minion, Garamond etc. contain glyphs for text fonts, but they're not selectable even if you have the stomach to wade into Calibre and fiddle with code. Again, I may be wrong.

But what I'm talking about is a purchased ebook. Again, as far as I know, I can't do anything with purchased ebooks on my device through Calibre - purchased books on my device don't even show up in Calibre when I plug the device in, so I don't see how I could do anything beyond changing the settings on the device itself. That's why I'm saying I'd prefer this option to be incorporated into device options. Which I realise is not a Calibre issue in any way.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Not if it's a purchased book!

Why not a purchased book? I edit them all the time.

Originally Posted by Liudprand

I'm saying it should be possible to put ebooks together using text figures that can then be overridden by the reader. Yes, that wold mean adding a setting. There aren't very many options on my Kobo, and I don't think it would take a reader who objected to text figures (which are pretty standard in printed books, so I don't honestly know how many readers it would upset) very long to find the setting. I realise it probably won't happen, but I'm just stating my preference.

And I was giving some reasons that it is unlikely to happen. Start with needing a font that supports them which are not all that common. The problem with getting a manufacturer to add this capability is that the vast majority of any ereaders are purchased by people who will never change the default settings other than font size and the cost of changing the font selection to include them in every factory font.

As keeps getting mentioned, the readers on MobileRead are a very small minority of ereader owners.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

But what I'm talking about is a purchased ebook. Again, as far as I know, I can't do anything with purchased ebooks on my device through Calibre - purchased books on my device don't even show up in Calibre when I plug the device in, so I don't see how I could do anything beyond changing the settings on the device itself. That's why I'm saying I'd prefer this option to be incorporated into device options. Which I realise is not a Calibre issue in any way.

Perhaps look into the Obok plugin?

[Liudprand]

Thanks. I'll have a look at it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Quoth - just some corroboration of what I'm talking about. If you go to the Amazon listing of Tom Holland's Dominion, you can look at the free preview of the Kindle version.

It's literally the first book I checked that includes the second chapter in the preview - chosen basically at random. The relevant couple of lines with the first note cue in Chapter 2 appear below. As you'll see, the note is numbered 1 - i.e. not numbered continuously with Chapter 1 - and only the note cue itself is formatted as a link, not any of the text that precedes it.

This remains absolutely the standard throughout professional nonfiction publishing - at least for now!

That remains the standard for PAPER BOOKS! It does not work well on eBooks. The tap zone is TOO SMALL! What I do is [01] in the same body text size for the tap zone and it works. Doing 1 as a superscript doesn't work. Also, doing it my way means you can have the line height smaller without throwing off the line spacing. Kindles use a line space that's too large.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Liudprand

Again, many thanks! But, again, I'll have to do a few evening classes before I understand any of this.

If, when you say "Is it Wrong if you do? Nope. Just inefficient to maintain. The only 'wrong' is when it fails on the clients device ", you're referring to the result I'm asking for - notes starting from 1 with each new chapter - I'd point you to my last couple of replies in this thread to Quoth. Within the subculture of this forum, it seems to be frowned upon as an objective - but it just happens to be the absolute, cast-iron industry-standard practice in the book world.

Don't use green text. Leave it as black. It's hard to read on a white background. Please go fix your post to remove the awful green.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

What is?
I'm confused.

The really stupid superscripted 1 for the footnote tap zone.