Help: missing embedded fonts after ePub3 transfer to Kindle

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I must have bent up someone's feelings about the whole eight fonts thing.

That's the only explanation for this bit. Oh, well.

Hitch

Your good. You did nothing wrong.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Your good. You did nothing wrong.

:-)



Thanks, Jon. Much appreciated.

Hitch

[nabsltd]

Originally Posted by Quoth

4) KFX has different rules to AZW/KF7 and seems mainly to exist to reduce Whispernet traffic on Mobile, allow reading before download is complete and always have DRM even if publisher said no DRM.

KFX also seems to move some of the heavy-lifting of more-complicated CSS to the creation time instead of during the actual reading.

You can see this by opening an ePub in Kindle Previewer, then edit the ePub to add a ::first-line rule that triggers a lot, like on a body paragraph. The first time, the file will open in less than a minute on pretty much any reasonable hardware. Go get lunch while the second one opens.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

KFX also seems to move some of the heavy-lifting of more-complicated CSS to the creation time instead of during the actual reading.

You can see this by opening an ePub in Kindle Previewer, then edit the ePub to add a ::first-line rule that triggers a lot, like on a body paragraph. The first time, the file will open in less than a minute on pretty much any reasonable hardware. Go get lunch while the second one opens.

That's not a valid comparison. The KFX is a Kindle format so it gets read right away. The ePub has to be converted and then it can be read.

How do the two compare (KF8 and KFX) when the ePub is first converted to dual-Mobi and then split into KF8 and Mobi?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Implying that Hitch is a troll is … just wrong.

Its also against the Forum rules.

From the Posting Guidelines, Sec 1:

Moderator Notice
Name calling is not permitted, even in the form of a question, e.g. "X's posts make me wonder how much he believes what he's saying, or if he's just a troll."

EDIT: I know I'm a bit late, but still....

[nabsltd]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Although my 'put all styling in the CSS sheet' philosophy cringes at putting styles in the html, I would think that following kindle's own recommendations would work, no?

I'm fairly sure that the MobileRead forums gurus could write several books about the quirks of Kindle. Between the actual "publishing" or conversion, plus the at-times baffling rendering choices, there is no way to know whether the documentation is wrong, or the code is wrong. All we know is that the two don't match up at times.

Even the page you listed has bizarre examples of "incorrect" code. One shows that properly nested DIVs with different formatting is "incorrect", and that you should not nest the DIVs, but rather have them sequential. The same for actual Cascading styles being "incorrect". Both of those "incorrect" examples work just fine on Kindle, at least as far as my tests go.

And, it also says the following:

Fixed Values
Avoid using fixed values such as points and pixels for CSS properties such as font-size, width, height, margin, padding, and text-indent. To enable rendering across various screen sizes and resolutions, specify these values in ems or percentages.

I'll re-write that to what really happens:

Fixed Values
If you use fixed values such as points and pixels for CSS properties such as font-size, width, height, margin, padding, and text-indent, Kindle will convert them to a percent or em value that is calculated based on the DPI of an original Kindle (167dpi).

In other words, a margin/indent of 30px on a 300dpi device should be 0.10". Instead, it's closer to 0.18", just like it was on the original Kindle.

Originally Posted by Hitch

I KNOW that they never intended that 50% thing (the "if an image is 50-51% of the width of the screen, the PPW, et al, will blow it up to 100%") bug) to be real. That was a bl**dy BUG.

See above for why that might have happened. There was probably code in the original Kindle to limit to 100%, and that blended with the "px using 167dpi at all times" resulted in some threshold where an image locked to full width.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Its also against the Forum rules.

From the Posting Guidelines, Sec 1:

Name calling is not permitted, even in the form of a question, e.g. "X's posts make me wonder how much he believes what he's saying, or if he's just a troll."

EDIT: I know I'm a bit late, but still....

Good thing I'm not a fragile flower o'er the dales... :-)
Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

May I ask-what's the name of this book with all the various personae appearing in different fonts????

Yes, I'd also be interested in seeing this unicorn. Perhaps it is THE ONE rare case where millions of fonts may be applicable and "acceptable".

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'll try to remember what I can, but...dudes. It's been a while. Tex might remember, b/c I think I regaled him with the story at the time and he's still got that steel-trap brain.

I definitely remember that book was discussed, but don't remember where (maybe an email?). But in the famous thread:

• 2019: "Font Best Practices"

you responded with a different tale:

Originally Posted by Hitch

I know that client. Been there, done that--and he had 40--FORTY--characters. Forty different fonts--forty-one with the main narrative font. I cannot tell you what I went through during that quote, trying to explain to him that what he wanted to do was a freaking nightmare.

All the same exact stuff we discussed back then, still applies today.

Side Note: If you want even more fun, type this into your favorite search engine:

• different fonts Tex2002ans Hitch site:mobileread.com
• "embedded fonts" Tex2002ans Hitch site:mobileread.com

There's hundreds of topics where we both covered all the details on this embedded font stuff!

* * *

Earlier this year, I also ran across a document where the author had:

• ~10 different fonts
• ~6 different highlight colors
  
  • Including different colors for Acronyms, depending on "category".
• Multiple font colors.
• Different style lines/boxes drawn around "notes"
• [...]

I wrote in-depth responses to him, and also summarized a lot of good book design info:

For more info, I'd highly recommend reading the quintessential book:

• "The Elements of Typographic Style" by Robert Bringhurst

Great book design uses:

• 3 or less fonts
  
  • MAYBE 4 max, but that's really pushing it.

Also, instead of:

• 50 colors/highlights
• + lines/boxes
• + images up/down/everywhere
• + all this "visual clutter"

you can instead make heavy use of:

• simple whitepsace + alignment

See the fantastic:

• /r/GIFs: "How to make your tables less terrible"

and my recent comments here:

• /r/LibreOffice: "Remove gaps between Borders"

where I took someone's fully-colored/muddled "table-like graphics", and turned it into an actually usable spreadsheet.

Remember:

• Less is More

[...]

Number+Usage of Fonts in Documents

Covers + Title Pages don't count. Those are fine, because they're usually done in a different visual style compared to the actual text of the book.

But within the books/documents themselves, it's better to stick with a small set of fonts.

You can then have a huge combination of variants just by using:

• Bold
• Italics
• Font Size
• Spacing + Alignment

For example:

• Chapters = 18pt + bold + center
• Subchapter = 16pt + bold
• Subsubchapter = 14pt + italics
• Normal text = 12pt

Need more?

• blockquotes = 1" on left/right
• code block = 1" on left/right + monospace font
• poetry = 1" on left/right + italics

All you need is 1 (or 2) fonts, and a dozen different looks can be created throughout the entire book.

(I have more than 13 years of experience in professional ebook creation! I have yet to see a book that can't fit in this few-fonts-needed mold.)

See:

• /r/LibreOffice: "Automatic page number in header forced highlight?"
  
  • and my other answers/explanations in the same topic.
    

Also, in the same topic, I wrote "Why 50 Different Fonts In Your Documents Is Awful"... which seems applicable to this thread:

* * *

Why 50 Different Fonts In Your Documents Is Awful

That said, you don't actually try to explain the ISSUE of different fonts.

• It's sloppy.
• It doesn't accomplish what you intend.
  
  • (It actually muddles and confuses.)
• It introduces a much higher chance for errors/inconsistencies.

For example, if you're trying to mark up every single acronym with special smallcaps/coloring/highlighting:

• You may miss some.
• If/when users override or don't use or have your fonts (like in ebooks)... your crutch disappears.

I discussed this all in heavy detail 3 months ago in:

• MobileRead.com: "CSS to Approximate a Telegram?"

Best way to handle acronyms?

• Type them in ALL CAPS
• 1st use = typed-out + simple parentheses after.
  
  • This is an Example Acronym (EA) in a sentence. Now you can freely use EA throughout.

There's no need to:

• write EA
• OR write "ea" in rainbow colors + underlined
• OR use some alternate font.

Instead of reading your text, the second a reader come across an oddly/inconsistently formatted thing, they're going to constantly be wondering:

• Why the heck are you doing such odd formatting?
  
  • Does this actually mean something? Or was this a mistake/typo?
• Why wasn't this one colored/formatted like the others?
• Why did you accidentally highlight EA #2 instead of EA #1?
• Why in the X did you miss X, Y, Z?
• What about edge-case 1, 2, and 3?

- - -

Note: Over the years, I've seen quite a few authors trying to have a different font for every single character in their Fiction book.

I can guarantee you:

• they would make a major mistake formatting that book.
• + readers would throw such an abomination into the trash.

But how would readers KNOW which character is speaking if they didn't have 10 different fonts to show them?

They can't just rely on dialogue tags—the tried and true method—they must get FONT differences too!

[Hitch]

oh, god, the FORTY.

I'd forgotten. I'd literally blanked it out. Couldn't face it any longer.

That's what is great (and not so great) about having you here, Tex--the RECALL. We should rename him Total Recall, guys.

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

oh, god, the FORTY.

I'd forgotten. I'd literally blanked it out. Couldn't face it any longer.

Yes, I also forgot about "Mr. 40 Fonts" until I did a search.

There are a few topics over the years that are stuck in my head, like "Footnoteception" guy:

• 2018: "Endnotes within Endnotes"

who had footnotes within footnotes within footnotes!

Which was last brought up in this thread with another "super unique book":

• 2021: "Problems with page breaks/blank pages/line spaces"

... which just turned out to need your typical poetry/lyrics code.

That's a common pattern that tends to happen:

• User/Author comes in and INSISTS X Book is so unique, requires completely never-before-seen formatting.
• Turns out, it can be handled just like 99% of all other ebooks, with simple, clean, HTML+CSS.

Very rarely do you get something that requires extremely advanced formatting—and then, it's still a good idea to deviate very slightly from the norm as needed.

Similar to Fixed Layout (FXL) ebooks:

In the extremely rare case, you may have a book that requires FXL. But in 99%+ of the cases, normal Reflowable ebooks are what you need:

• /r/selfpublish: "PDF or Quark Layout to ePub?"
• /r/selfpublish: "Learning how to convert my picture book for Kobo and Kindle (indd, Mobi, ePub and Fixed Format advice WELCOMED!)"

Originally Posted by Hitch

That's what is great (and not so great) about having you here, Tex--the RECALL.

lol.

Just make heavy use of the site: trick in your search engines!

And you, too, can learn the searchability superpower!

[Quoth]

All true.

Oh my eyes!
I remember when people doing clubs, societies, parent-teacher, scouts, churches etc 1st got Windows and loads of fonts and Inkjet printers.
Ghastly posters and newsletters, sometimes not just a different font on each line, but multiple fonts per line. I know six year olds with more sense!

Sometimes even big publishers are too experimental. Magpie Murders ©2016 Anthony Horowitz. Orion Books / Hachette. Maybe half the book is set in a monospace typewriter like font. That kind of thing was dead for a MSS maybe 20+ years earlier and we don't need that font to know that part of the book is a book inside the book (and real facsimile of old stle MSS was double line spaced anyway). I bought it only a couple years ago or last year and couldn't bear to read that, so bought the ebook!
I thought, well, I can fix that. But the ebook was conventionally formatted.
Stiil, I think I like the Alex Rider and Diamond Bros. series better!

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Quoth

All true.

Oh my eyes!
I remember when people doing clubs, societies, parent-teacher, scouts, churches etc 1st got Windows and loads of fonts and Inkjet printers.
Ghastly posters and newsletters, sometimes not just a different font on each line, but multiple fonts per line. I know six year olds with more sense!

I still have ghastly memories of when people first started using Macs and LaserWriters to do newsletters. One common term for the barely readable results was 'ransom note'. Of course, on a Mac you could get the same effect using the San Francisco font. Microsoft not to be left out actually had a font called Ransom. You can check this link if your stomach is feeling strong.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

I still have ghastly memories of when people first started using Macs and LaserWriters to do newsletters. One common term for the barely readable results was 'ransom note'. Of course, on a Mac you could get the same effect using the San Francisco font. Microsoft not to be left out actually had a font called Ransom. You can check this link if your stomach is feeling strong.

I like the Ransom font. I think we should read books using it.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I like teh Ransom font. I think we should read books using it.

Oh, ye gods, I recall that now. Wowzers.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Oh, ye gods, I recall that now. Wowzers.

Hitch

I have a great idea. If you have a really annoying customer, use Ransom as the base font for the person's eBook.