Amazon and DRM changes

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Ma'am-I-Am

Epubs can be sent thru Send-to-Kindle (which they convert, of course) so I'm thinking they're playing with the idea of offering epub versions as a choice when purchasing.

No, it's a way of getting copies of non-Amazon books! Actually, taking foil hat off, it's just a convenience because for years the KDP upload has worked best with epub rather than doc, docx or mobi.

The epub is an open published spec, so not just Sigil & Calibre produce it but many bought tools used by publishers produce epub.

It doesn't at all imply that they will offer epub for download (extra cost of royalty per copy to Adobe, or expensive bulk licence). Epub downloads will not happen unless publishers and Amazon go entirely DRM free.

What non-Kindle customers?

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[ownedbycats]

Originally Posted by Ma'am-I-Am

Epubs can be sent thru Send-to-Kindle (which they convert, of course) so I'm thinking they're playing with the idea of offering epub versions as a choice when purchasing. This might encourage non-Kindle users to buy at Amazon while still supporting Kindles. Non-Kindle users may end up switching to Kindle for the simple convenience of easy delivery with no conversion required.

lol, no.

[salamanderjuice]

Originally Posted by Quoth

No, it's a way of getting copies of non-Amazon books! Actually, taking foil hat off, it's just a convenience because for years the KDP upload has worked best with epub rather than doc, docx or mobi.

The epub is an open published spec, so not just Sigil & Calibre produce it but many bought tools used by publishers produce epub.

It doesn't at all imply that they will offer epub for download (extra cost of royalty per copy to Adobe, or expensive bulk licence). Epub downloads will not happen unless publishers and Amazon go entirely DRM free.

What non-Kindle customers?

Epub is an open format. They wouldn't have to pay anyone royalties to use it. Even for DRM they wouldn't have to use Adobe's, Apple doesn't, Bookwalker doesn't and Amazon is certainly capable of rolling their own DRM. I mean they won't bother anyways but it's not because they'd have to pay Adobe.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by salamanderjuice

Epub is an open format. They wouldn't have to pay anyone royalties to use it. Even for DRM they wouldn't have to use Adobe's, Apple doesn't, Bookwalker doesn't and Amazon is certainly capable of rolling their own DRM. I mean they won't bother anyways but it's not because they'd have to pay Adobe.

Thats why they'd only use if if EVERY BOOK was DRM free. The DRM is certainly not free for epub. It is for azw3 & KFX because it's Amazon's. An epub with non-Adobe DRM is essentially an azw3! Yes, it's not actually, but that's much like an epub with Amazon rather than Adobe DRM would be like.
If you use any DRM other than Adobe's on epub, it might as well be an azw3 as it's no use to any epub app or ereader.
To be effective DRM the actual app or ereader needs to be registered with the DRM provider.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Only Amazon wanted to develop their own proprietary formats (well, Kobo did too, but they never stopped supporting epub). That says something about their priorities.

Microsoft's .lit, Sony's BBeB(.lrf), Peanut Press's eReader (.pdb)... and the list goes on. I know it's fun to paint Amazon as the only wrench in the path to a one-open-ebook-format-to-rule-them-all nirvana, but It's not entirely accurate. Everybody was in the proprietary format development game in the beginning. At the time epub became the defacto standard of all non-Amazon ebook stores, it would have made no sense for Amazon to retool in order to adopt a format/DRM scheme it clearly didn't need.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Microsoft's .lit, Sony's BBeB(.lrf), Peanut Press's eReader (.pdb)... and the list goes on. I know it's fun to paint Amazon as the only wrench in the path to a one-open-ebook-format-to-rule-them-all nirvana, but It's not entirely accurate. Everybody was in the proprietary format development game in the beginning. At the time epub became the defacto standard of all non-Amazon ebook stores, it would have made no sense for Amazon to retool in order to adopt a format/DRM scheme it clearly didn't need.

As I've already said, I've never been aware of those happy times when everyone and their brother had their own personal format, because I read paper books then. When I started to read ebooks, everyone but Amazon had already adopted epub as the standard. So I expressed my opinion based on what I knew. Still, even if adopting epub has never made sense for Amazon, their constant tightening of their DRM won't endear them to people either. I know you and the majority of their customers don't care, but some people still do.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

As I've already said, I've never been aware of those happy times when everyone and their brother had their own personal format, because I read paper books then. When I started to read ebooks, everyone but Amazon had already adopted epub as the standard. So I expressed my opinion based on what I knew

But you didn't express an opinion. You made a false claim that "only Amazon wanted to develop a proprietary format."
Perhaps if you are as unfamiliar with the history of ebook formats as you claim, it would best that you refrain from making such uneducated claims about said history?

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Still, even if adopting epub has never made sense for Amazon, their constant tightening of their DRM won't endear them to people either. I know you and the majority of their customers don't care, but some people still do.

Not enough people to matter (to Amazon). So why dwell on it? Give them your business or don't (that's a rhetorical 'your', I don't mean to single anyone out, here), but the constant complaining is tiresome. Had Amazon not been successful with ebooks/Kindle would everyone be bashing retailers for not selling ebooks that can be read on their niche Amazon readers?

The only reason people don't bash epub retailers for making it difficult to step over their garden wall is because they have failed to implement an unbreakable DRM. But that is not for lack of trying. And it's definitely not for altruistic reasons.

[salamanderjuice]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Thats why they'd only use if if EVERY BOOK was DRM free. The DRM is certainly not free for epub. It is for azw3 & KFX because it's Amazon's. An epub with non-Adobe DRM is essentially an azw3! Yes, it's not actually, but that's much like an epub with Amazon rather than Adobe DRM would be like.
If you use any DRM other than Adobe's on epub, it might as well be an azw3 as it's no use to any epub app or ereader.
To be effective DRM the actual app or ereader needs to be registered with the DRM provider.

No it's not. They could fully support DRM Free ePubs which would allow for sideloading them over USB locally rather than converting through their servers with all the complications and cost that adds. Other stores and devices supporting Adobe's DRM is nice but it's not required and there's already devices and stores that use their own DRM or don't support Adobe DRM (e.g Apple Books, Remarkable, etc.). Amazon already doesn't care about Kindle books working outside their ecosystem so I'm not sure why that would change.

It's not much different from Kobo supporting Mobi even if they can't use majority of DRM locked files, or Boox supporting AZW3 even though they also can't use DRM locked files. It's actually easier to get legit DRM Free ePubs than Mobi or AZW3.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

But you didn't express an opinion. You made a false claim that "only Amazon wanted to develop a proprietary format."
Perhaps if you are as unfamiliar with the history of ebook formats as you claim, it would best that you refrain from making such uneducated claims about said history?

I make as many claims as I want, false or not, whether you like it or not.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by salamanderjuice

No it's not. They could fully support DRM Free ePubs

Only if EVERY book they sold was DRM free. Otherwise a customer service nightmare.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

I make as many claims as I want, false or not, whether you like it or not.

Yep. And people can call you out for spreading misinformation, whether you like it or not.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yep. And people can call you out for spreading misinformation, whether you like it or not.

Of course.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by salamanderjuice

It's not much different from Kobo supporting Mobi even if they can't use majority of DRM locked files, or Boox supporting AZW3 even though they also can't use DRM locked files. It's actually easier to get legit DRM Free ePubs than Mobi or AZW3.

It's hugely different. Kobo don't sell mobi. Does Onyx have a viable bookshop? Maybe some with a Boox can comment on azw3 vs epub for same book via Calibre from a docx source.

Besides Mobi support is pointless, one because it's poor and two because it's a limited format. It's likely for older non-Amazon DRM free mobi. Mobi existed before the Kindle. Kobo mobi support even of my own conversions or Gutenberg downloads is abysmal compared to the oldest Kindles or a new Kindle. It's maybe some old prc era mobi format.

I don't know what Boox azw3 support is like, but without being able to register a Boox as Kindle App or Kindle it's pointless. I have a Mars eink with Android, so naturally it supports DRMed Libby, Borrowbox and Kindle ebooks by using the Android apps.

Sure I'd like real mobi & azw3 on Kobo and real epub download from Amazon, but it's financially and politically impossible unless all ebooks everywhere are completely and utterly DRM free and without any geographical restrictions.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Microsoft's .lit, Sony's BBeB(.lrf), Peanut Press's eReader (.pdb)... and the list goes on. I know it's fun to paint Amazon as the only wrench in the path to a one-open-ebook-format-to-rule-them-all nirvana, but It's not entirely accurate. Everybody was in the proprietary format development game in the beginning. At the time epub became the defacto standard of all non-Amazon ebook stores, it would have made no sense for Amazon to retool in order to adopt a format/DRM scheme it clearly didn't need.

Totally. It would have been idiotic of Amazon!

And before reflowable ebooks, the WYSIWYG PDF (since 1992?) with encryption.

[salamanderjuice]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Only if EVERY book they sold was DRM free. Otherwise a customer service nightmare.

They already have that now! I see so many posts online about "Kindles now supporting ePub" but really it's just their Send to Kindle feature. It's arguably more confusing because it doesn't work over USB and can easily do a really poor job. Adding support for DRM Free ePub wouldn't change much and might actually lower support calls because customers won't be confused by why that book they emailed to the Kindle worked but not the one they dragged over.

Amazon already muddies the water by saying on their specs page "HTML DOC, DOCX, JPEG, GIF, PNG, PMP, EPUB, TXT, RTF through conversion." Which is a bit silly because presumably everything "works" if you convert it before hand.