Pirate Bay founders found guilty

[PGP_Protector]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

This is excellent news though long overdue.

So is google next ?
Everything found via TPB is also available vis Google.

[mjdb]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

I continue to hear rumblings that Tor will have their eBooks up and running at a variety of outlets. And one of those outlets will apparently be Webscriptions [snip]

This long awaited deal has been hanging fire for several years! [snip]

There followed another long delay while lawyers wrestled out the contractual details. After yet more delay, we're now hearing that the only remaining issues are "techincal" [snip]

Xenophon

In her newsgroup (Toni's Table) at Baen's Bar, Baen's Publisher Toni Weisskopf was recently asked for an update on the situation.

Her reply on Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:02:05 GMT
"Still waiting for final paperwork.--Toni"

http://bar.baen.com/Default.aspx?new...aen.TonisTable

http://bar.baen.com/baen.TonisTable/...ml?thread=true

[timezone]

There appears to be a number of issues being discussed. The intrusion of DRM and the copyright issue.

As I understand the US law, we as a consumer have the right to fair use of a product. This includes copying material for backup purposes and personal use. The VCR industry decades ago won the personal use lawsuit. I believe it was Cablevision that recently won an appeal for DVR use. They want to use their own servers rather than the hard drive on the DVR to playback a movie. Their argument was, each copy was tied to the user that had the right to DVR a program.

So we have the right at least in the US to fair use of a product. However a company is not required to provide the consumer with the ability to utilize the right to fair use. DRM impedes our ability to fair use of a product. This is where I think it is murky. I believe someone offering a program to break DRM maybe breaking the law but the consumer using it to obtain fair use of the product may not be breaking the law. I wish there was a copyright lawyer here that could comment.

The other issue is the Pirate Bay case. If they provided servers where the copyrighted material ended up on its way between where the file was held and the person requesting the material then I believe that is enough to find them guilty. At the same time an AOL type of model or Internet provider operates like a bulletin board. They are not responsible for what people say or do. Just like the phone company is not liable for people discussing criminal activity on the phone. If Pirate Bay was just a peer to peer network without their own servers then I think they have a stronger case. The people sharing the illegal material would be the ones breaking the law.

Of course I really do not know the law and I am only offering these thoughts as items to consider as the debate rages on. Copyright infringement is a crime but I believe there are times when it gets tricky.

[astra]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Good God, Sparrow, I do hope that you're joking.

Did you hear that more and more of white working class in London and surrounding area is joining/voting to/for BNP lately?
Do you know that 45% of London and surrounding area consists of ethnic minorities?
Do you believe it is a coincidence?

Don't you think that there is a serious problem with immigration policies and benefit system behind all of this?

Don't get me wrong. I would not vote for them because they will get muslims first, then they will get me, jewish.

I know people who don't want to go near London or live there because they don't see English people there anymore.

Definitely something is wrong.

[HarryT]

Astra,

May I suggest that you start a separate thread on the subject of immigration policy in the "Conservatory" forum? It's an interesting subject to discuss, but I think we're straying a little too far off topic here for many peoples' comfort.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by astra

Did you hear that more and more of white working class in London and surrounding area is joining/voting to/for BNP lately?
Do you know that 45% of London and surrounding area consists of ethnic minorities?
Do you believe it is a coincidence?

Did you know that these 45% "ethnic minorities" have been living there for what, half a century now? And that they really weren't as "criminal" or "threatening" before fairly recently? Don't you think that the current BNP voting has more to do with the perceived threat that is taught to them by the Daily Wail than by a sudden and systematic shift in the behavior of "minorities"?

Don't you think that there is a serious problem with immigration policies and benefit system behind all of this?

What does the benefit system have to do with it?

Don't get me wrong. I would not vote for them because they will get muslims first, then they will get me, jewish.
I know people who don't want to go near London or live there because they don't see English people there anymore.
Definitely something is wrong.

I do get you wrong. Either those "people you know" already vote or lean towards the BNP, they watch TV/read the Wail too much (and make way too much of those "knifing reports"), or they're very, very blind. Because whenever i'm in London I see plenty of people who have that re-assuring white skin-color.
Have you noticed that whenever the economy goes to shit minorities are blamed? And that those minorities are also likely to be the hardest-hit whenever the economy goes to shit, because they'll have all the crappy jobs? Don't you think it's a tad unfair to say "well, they're obviously criminals waiting for an excuse. Just deport the bastards" rather than considering that they're also doing badly, but that their plight is heavily underreported on in the media?
Sudden increases of the number of people who vote for nationalistic and racist parties are always suspect, and usually caused by something else than "Increased awareness". Rather, it's because they're fired and have nothing better to do than "worry" about "minorities".

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by gwynevans

They're a "online tech publication", and as such, I'm less than convinced that they're under the remit of the PCA. I'd think that you'd be unwise to trust that the authors don't have their own agendas, one of which will almost certainly be that a certain amount of controversial material will help boost the page-stats...

Perfectly true, but do you not think that the only English-language reporter at the trial, a self-confessed "copyright activist", equally has an agenda to promote in his reporting of the trial and the issues involved? Nothing about this affair, I'm afraid, is "balanced and neutral".

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Well well, this is good news The Swedish courts have just invigorated the file-sharing movement and turned the founders of the Pirate Bay into Rock Stars. Plus all the major media coverage (5 minute segment on Ch5 News in UK explaining in detail how to get "free stuff") and what you've got here is nothing but an EPIC win on the part of the Pirate Bay. They'll never see a day of jail, never pay a penny in compensation, and this will get thrown out in the Swedish higher courts just as it should have been thrown out in the first place.

Did you see the interview with one of the founders of "The Pirate Bay" on last night's BBC News, Moejoe?

Quote: "I don't care about the law. If I see something I want, I take it. Because I can."

That doesn't strike me as the attitude of a "rock star"; more the attitude of a spoiled kid (and three of them are just kids) who has never had to learn the realities of life: that you can't have everything that you want, instantly. That you have to work and save up your money and BUY stuff that you want.

These are not "heroes". They're a group of kids who want "to get free stuff". And now they've learned that there are consequences to their actions, and that they are not "above the law", as they so obviously consider themselves to be. Perhaps, after their prison sentences, they'll grow up a bit and learn that you can't take whatever you want, just because you "can".

[astra]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps, after their prison sentences, they'll grow up a bit and learn that you can't take whatever you want, just because you "can".

More likely, they will loose virginity in all the wrong places and in addition become real criminals...that's life.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Did you see the interview with one of the founders of "The Pirate Bay" on last night's BBC News, Moejoe?

Quote: "I don't care about the law. If I see something I want, I take it. Because I can."

That doesn't strike me as the attitude of a "rock star"; more the attitude of a spoiled kid (and three of them are just kids) who has never had to learn the realities of life: that you can't have everything that you want, instantly. That you have to work and save up your money and BUY stuff that you want.

Sorry, but the whole point that comes out of this is that they could, for at least the past 5 years. Don't blame them for the lack of adequate legislation.

These are not "heroes". They're a group of kids who want "to get free stuff". And now they've learned that there are consequences to their actions, and that they are not "above the law", as they so obviously consider themselves to be. Perhaps, after their prison sentences, they'll grow up a bit and learn that you can't take whatever you want, just because you "can".

Let's see what happens in the appeals process first, shall we? Although I find your statement that kids should learn how to behave/grow up in prison odd, to say the least.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by zerospinboson

Sorry, but the whole point that comes out of this is that they could, for at least the past 5 years. Don't blame them for the lack of adequate legislation.

I'm sorry, but you can't blame society for a lack of ethics in these kids. Blame their parents, perhaps, for not teaching them the difference between right and wrong, but they were well aware of the law, and they chose to regard themselves as "above" it.

Let's see what happens in the appeals process first, shall we? Although I find your statement that kids should learn how to grow up in prison odd, to say the least.

I find it very sad that it should have come to that, but if you commit a crime, you have to pay the penalty. This isn't some small-time personal downloading - these are people who have been raking in millions of dollars by cynically and knowingly breaking the law, and now they're being punished for it.

[zerospinboson]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sorry, but you can't blame society for a lack of ethics in these kids. Blame their parents, perhaps, for not teaching them the difference between right and wrong, but they were well aware of the law, and they chose to regard themselves as "above" it.

Where did I talk about ethics? I'm talking about the law, and the final word has hardly been said on that yet. Hence my emphasis on the Appeals process.

I find it very sad that it should have come to that, but if you commit a crime, you have to pay the penalty. This isn't some small-time personal downloading - these are people who have been raking in millions of dollars by cynically and knowingly breaking the law, and now they're being punished for it.

Myes. I'll have to ask you to find me an objective source for that report on the damages caused, as well as on the money made by them now, as I've been unable to find that myself.
Yes, the damage will likely be non-zero, but from that it just does not follow that the figures mentioned by the RIAA et al. are correct. Similarly for those idiotic reports on what the operators of the pirate bay "made".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sorry, but you can't blame society for a lack of ethics in these kids. Blame their parents, perhaps, for not teaching them the difference between right and wrong, but they were well aware of the law, and they chose to regard themselves as "above" it.

This is wrong. I thought we were talking about the pirate bay trial here. They tried to check if it was legal or not to have a link collection and they got the answer that it was and I really think they honestly believed that and still believe that (the case is not decided yet since a sentence in lower court does not give a precedent). What these people do outside of pirate bay does not matter in the same way that the fact that millions of people commit copyrigt infringement regularly does not affect the legality of their daytime job.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I find it very sad that it should have come to that, but if you commit a crime, you have to pay the penalty. This isn't some small-time personal downloading - these are people who have been raking in millions of dollars by cynically and knowingly breaking the law, and now they're being punished for it.

This show that you have fallen for the copyright organizations' propaganda.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

if you commit a crime, you have to pay the penalty.

Clearly not the case - all sorts of people (with friends in high places) are given immunity from prosecution for the crimes they've committed.