Paper books still have an advantage

[Quoth]

But your proposal turns ebooks into library books. We need to get rid of DRM, not expand it!

Also authors or publishers make nothing from secondhand books.

Just accept that ebooks have no S/H value and any attempt to change it would actually be bad for consumers.

[ownedbycats]

If being able to sell eBooks secondhand meant dealing with more onerous DRM, I don't want that.

[Quoth]

There used to be a lively collection of second-hand bookshops here, but they have been nearly killed off by Charity shops selling cheaper (except Oxfam who can manage to equal Tesco prices). Those shops get their stock free and would be uninterested in S/H intangible goods.

Generally I'll only buy an S/H paper book from an online seller because the eBook is unavailable and paper edition is out of print.

[Hardboiled]

Originally Posted by Quoth

But your proposal turns ebooks into library books. We need to get rid of DRM, not expand it!

Also authors or publishers make nothing from secondhand books.

Just accept that ebooks have no S/H value and any attempt to change it would actually be bad for consumers.

It would be no worse than it is now and unfortunately getting rid of DRM would see a lot of publishers just withdraw from the eBook market. It's a necessary evil, though ultimately futile to the hardcore, and in principal I agree with you. Copy protection is necessary to protect IP. I have lost revenue directly to piracy across various media including DVDs, there's nothing ultimately you can do about it but stemming casual piracy does work.

Authors and publishers making money from 2nd hand books is totally moot - you have to separate copyright from physical ownership of a copy. Presently we do not not own digital copies, for which often we pay the same, as though we did. I'm only suggesting a system like Overdrive's technology. It would not turn a purchase into a library book, since they are time locked to 21 days, for example. You would only lose access if you sold it, to prevent you selling endless copies, naturally. It's an idle suggestion, of course, that is never likely to happen. But speaking as a content producer for both books and films, who has distributed and sold directly to the consumer, both physical and digital download, I would personally like and do consider that they should own that copy, as an collectable investment, not to be controlled and determined by an International conglomerate, who were never the creators in the first place.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Hardboiled

Part of the problem with eBooks, is there is no viable legal 2nd hand market in them.

This is only a problem for those who are interested in selling their books (e or p) on a second-hand market. I, personally, cannot remember ever selling a used book. So it's certainly not a universal "problem."

[Hardboiled]

Also I should say, it already happens in a form digitally, with Non-Fungible Tokens. They are commoditized and become investments, and they exist only in the ether. It could be that the various book selling platforms could offer this technology as a 2nd hand market place. 2nd hand book sellers, could too incorporate theoretically such a technology. A percentage could even be taken as a fund for authors/publishers, such as happens with music rights, though there is of course no precedent in physical books for this, as you alluded to. As I say idle thinking but I believe it could promote the market for eBooks even further were it workable.

[Hardboiled]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

This is only a problem for those who are interested in selling their books (e or p) on a second-hand market. I, personally, cannot remember ever selling a used book. So it's certainly not a universal "problem."

I never suggested it was a universal problem, only a missed opportunity, perhaps. And there is most certainly a thriving 2nd hand book market and people do sell and buy them - you may not get much selling your books but if you have many to sell it may not be insignificant either. It is most certainly better than nothing, I would say, which is what the 2nd hand eBook market is. Alternatively you could, of course, just gift them to somebody, which you also can't do now.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Stephen King posted this on Twitter recently:

A bookshelf can hold many more book then you think. Just get a bunch of Kindles, Kobos, and Pocketbooks and there you go. Just one or two shelves are all you need.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A bookshelf can hold many more book then you think. Just get a bunch of Kindles, Kobos, and Pocketbooks and there you go. Just one or two shelves are all you need.

My Kobo has 5,500 books on it. I'm aware.

Also, not everyone has SK's resources to make space for large paper book collections.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Hardboiled

Part of the problem with eBooks, is there is no viable legal 2nd hand market in them. It's connected with the fact that we don't really own them (the individual copy that is, obviously not the copyright) in the first place. IMV, this has to change. The DRM technology could provide for this, in a similar way to how Overdrive works, i.e, if you sold your book, your device/s serial number access is removed.

Because a resold e-book would be identical to a newly purchased one there would be no incentive for anyone to purchase a new book as long as a used copy existed. After an initial burst of popularity a publisher would never sell another copy. The price of e-books would have to increase to several times the current value to make up for that.

Instead of resale I would like the possibility of being able to return an e-book to the original place of purchase at any time for something like ten percent of the original purchase price. That would put e-books on a more even footing with paper books in terms of what the original purchaser would likely receive in compensation for relinquishing the right to read that copy of that book.

[Hardboiled]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Because a resold e-book would be identical to a newly purchased one there would be no incentive for anyone to purchase a new book as long as a used copy existed. After an initial burst of popularity a publisher would never sell another copy. The price of e-books would have to increase to several times the current value to make up for that.

That's simply would not be true. Anymore than it is for physical books. I can buy a new physical book today and sell it immediately on eBay, perfectly legally; that would be daft since I would be unlikely get it's retail price and I can get a refund of that amount by simply returning it. Nonetheless, in a year's time I could more sensibly do that, as many do, and get something for it.

Similarly an individual eBook could face the same options, i.e. it would be senseless to sell it during an entitled refund period. But it may be viable in a few year's time, for me; and if I owned it I would be entitled to, as well. Since I'm only selling my individual single licence, I'm hardly a threat to the publisher and people would be more likely to trust the direct publisher source, new anyway.

But in any case that is not what a 2nd hand book market thrives on, it thrives on rare and out-of-print titles, not junk. In physical print books, there are many reasons for this scarcity: end of print run; end of writer's contract; withdrawal for whatever reason and simply too old and forgotten titles, off the list in years to come. It is not inconceivable that some eBooks, will suffer the same fate, too, notwithstanding they are digital files, in a few years time.

But ultimately you keep confusing the rights holders right to make money and the consumer's right of ownership. If I buy a new car, I pay them a lot but they never will be entitled to anymore again when I sell it and it in turn it gets sold on - it's my car not their's any longer. They hold the design and manufacturing rights, not the ownership of my actual car. An author and publisher has every moral and legal right to be expected to be paid for their work fairly, not to infinitely claim royalties direct from the consumer forever. That doesn't happen with print books and I don't see why you feel it would with 2nd hand eBooks, were we to actually own them either. I can legally sell a licence for 2nd hand software, that is just a digital file, why not an eBook too?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Hardboiled

That's simply would not be true. Anymore than it is for physical books.

Yes it would likely be very true. Because ebooks are not the same as pbooks. A fact that those who are proponents of some sort of second-sale doctrine RE ebooks don't wish to address. Different beasts, different rules.

[famfam]

For true readers epub is the best. Printed books are out. Its nostalgic nothing else. Nobody can or will read big and heavy printed books.

[Hardboiled]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yes it would likely be very true. Because ebooks are not the same as pbooks. A fact that those who are proponents of some sort of second-sale doctrine RE ebooks don't wish to address. Different beasts, different rules.

Please read what I wrote properly. They are not now the same, but they easily could be and that is my point. I repeat I can legally sell a 2nd hand software licence.

[DiapDealer]

I didn't misread you. You saying selling used ebooks wouldn't destroy first-sale ebooks doesn't make it true. Jhowell's concerns on that front are valid. Using used pbooks sales to "prove" that new ebook sales wouldn't be harmed by used ebook sales IS comparing apples to oranges.

Nothing is going to make ebooks and pbooks "the same". They can't be made the same by treating them the same.