Libra 2 ignoring widows/orphans - Page 2

DrChiper · 02-28-2023, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You don't need widows and orphans any other place in the CSS but body.

Yes, you do as otherwise it does not work in kobo devices. The <body> setting is not inherited by <p> and <div> (which it should, but is not), otherwise I would not have this construct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Also, you don't need a font size of 1em. 1em is the default font size.

I like to make my defaults visible, thank you. Old programming habit. YMMV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And you don't need justify except in body.

I like to justify just my paragraphs, thank you. YMMV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And don't use % for a margin as it changes based on the screen/window size.

That was what I intended: bigger screen, more margin. YMMV.

Boy, that were a lot of "don't-s", don't you think?

JSWolf · 02-28-2023, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Yes, you do as otherwise it does not work in kobo devices. The <body> setting is not inherited by <p> and <div> (which it should, but is not), otherwise I would not have this construct.

I like to make my defaults visible, thank you. Old programming habit. YMMV.

I like to justify just my paragraphs, thank you. YMMV.

That was what I intended: bigger screen, more margin. YMMV.

Boy, that were a lot of "don't-s", don't you think?

This is all you need.

Code:

body {
  margin-left: 0.5em;
  margin-right: 0.5em;
  orphans: 1;
  widows: 1;
  text-align: justify;
}

I have a Libra 2 and I know it works. Oh and the serif, you also don't need it.

It's a lot of don't because it's a lot of you don't need. It can all be done in body. And yes, it does work.

DrChiper · 02-28-2023, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I have a Libra 2 and I know it works.

Well, I did say YMMV. Mine did not, now it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It can all be done in body.

Actually, you don't need <body> at all. Just use <html> and you're fine

Sirtel · 02-28-2023, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Yes, you do as otherwise it does not work in kobo devices. The <body> setting is not inherited by <p> and <div> (which it should, but is not), otherwise I would not have this construct.

Thank you, that's good to know.

Skydog · 02-28-2023, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Yes, you do as otherwise it does not work in kobo devices. The <body> setting is not inherited by <p> and <div> (which it should, but is not), otherwise I would not have this construct.

Thank you for pointing out this valuable bit of information. After many years of hair-pulling, I discovered this by accident, not realizing it is unique to Kobo devices.

jackie_w · 02-28-2023, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Yes, you do as otherwise it does not work in kobo devices. The <body> setting is not inherited by <p> and <div> (which it should, but is not), otherwise I would not have this construct.

This is news to me, also! Can I confirm that you're just talking about widows/orphans with this statement? Or is it any CSS property in <body>?

If it's just widows/orphans I probably wouldn't have noticed because I have also set

Code:

[Reading]
readingAdobeOrphans=1
readingAdobeWidows=1

in the Kobo config file to take care of epubs. And kepubs have always ignored widows/orphans CSS.

DrChiper · 03-01-2023, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

This is news to me, also! Can I confirm that you're just talking about widows/orphans with this statement? Or is it any CSS property in <body>?

Yes, I'm just referring to orphans/widows. That said, I wouldn't be surprised that other inheritance issues may exist, but I have yet to encounter them.

Originally, I just used the earlier by others above stated <body> definition:

Code:

body {
  . . .
  orphans: 1;
  widows: 1;
  . . .
}

and assumed they worked in <p>, <div>, etc. and never checked further.
About a month ago, I had a text with mixed paragraphs comprising multiple lines and noticed they behaved funny at the kobo bottom page boundaries. That is, a paragraph sometimes was completely moved to the next page, leaving a kind of huge gap at the bottom of the current displayed page. This is odd, as the orphans/widows setting indicates at least 1 line of the next paragraph must be placed on the current page. I tried several things, dived again in the CSS documentation, but could not find a solution.
Reasoning did suggest that the orphans/widows settings were not inherited by the paragraph <p> (and <div>), which I could not really believe. But hey, paper specs are not always (correctly) translated into code I knew from past experiences. So I did hard coded my CSS <p> & <div> settings to include orphans/widows to check this. And then it worked perfectly. QED

Well, for me that is. Some rumors in this thread still doubt this

So I suggest to try it yourself and see whether it works for you as YMMV. It might be that my kobo's are mondaymorning devices (latest FW)

Let us know so we may learn.

DrChiper · 03-01-2023, 06:35 AM

In addition, I should mention that because I had issues with so-called assumed "default" values, which did not seemed to contain the assumed default value at all (cannot remember whether it was Kobo / Sony / other), I always include at the top of my CSS the following:

Code:

* {
  margin: 0;
  padding: 0;
  line-height: normal;
}

The "line-height" is very necessary on using the font-family "Bitter Pro" (which is often my standard font), as otherwise the default line-height is annoyingly high.
But as always, YMMV

JSWolf · 03-01-2023, 06:57 AM

@DrChiper, please go o the following post and download the ePub I've posted and see if you get widows & orphans or not. Thanks.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...&postcount=297

DrChiper · 03-01-2023, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

@DrChiper, please go o the following post and download the ePub I've posted and see if you get widows & orphans or not.

Using my Glow Touch, latest FW, no patches.
See screenshots: left your epub unaltered, right epub adjusted to my *, <body>, <p> settings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Thanks.

Your welcome.

JSWolf · 03-01-2023, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Using my Glow Touch, latest FW, no patches.
See screenshots: left your epub unaltered, right epub adjusted to my *, <body>, <p> settings.

Your welcome.

Can you please try moving the widows and orphans from body into html and try again?

jackie_w · 03-01-2023, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Yes, I'm just referring to orphans/widows. That said, I wouldn't be surprised that other inheritance issues may exist, but I have yet to encounter them.

Originally, I just used the earlier by others above stated <body> definition:

Code:

body {
  . . .
  orphans: 1;
  widows: 1;
  . . .
}

and assumed they worked in <p>, <div>, etc. and never checked further.
About a month ago, I had a text with mixed paragraphs comprising multiple lines and noticed they behaved funny at the kobo bottom page boundaries. That is, a paragraph sometimes was completely moved to the next page, leaving a kind of huge gap at the bottom of the current displayed page. This is odd, as the orphans/widows setting indicates at least 1 line of the next paragraph must be placed on the current page. I tried several things, dived again in the CSS documentation, but could not find a solution.
Reasoning did suggest that the orphans/widows settings were not inherited by the paragraph <p> (and <div>), which I could not really believe. But hey, paper specs are not always (correctly) translated into code I knew from past experiences. So I did hard coded my CSS <p> & <div> settings to include orphans/widows to check this. And then it worked perfectly. QED

So I suggest to try it yourself and see whether it works for you as YMMV. It might be that my kobo's are mondaymorning devices (latest FW)

I can confirm that setting widows/orphans to 1, in <body>, does not work if the [Reading] options readingAdobeOrphans & readingAdobeWidows are not set in the Kobo config file. I'm going to guess that it stopped working at the same time the config options were introduced.

I don't have the tech skills to do a deep dive into the firmware code to confirm any of this but a plausible explanation of observations may be...

Whatever config values are set in readingAdobeOrphans & readingAdobeWidows will always override whatever values (if any) are present in <body>.

If readingAdobeOrphans & readingAdobeWidows are absent from config both default to a value of 2. In which case any widows/orphans values present in <body> will be overridden with a value of 2.

Any widows/orphans CSS hard-coded anywhere other than <body> should follow the normal rules of CSS inheritance and specificity.

DrChiper · 03-01-2023, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Can you please try moving the widows and orphans from body into html and try again?

I leave that as an exercise for yourself

DrChiper · 03-01-2023, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

I can confirm that setting widows/orphans to 1, in <body>, does not work if the [Reading] options readingAdobeOrphans & readingAdobeWidows are not set in the Kobo config file.

Great!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

I'm going to guess that it stopped working at the same time the config options were introduced.

Prior this thread, I never heard about this option before. You have inside information? It is also very kobo specific, so you still have to include orphans/widows in the CSS when you use other ereader devices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie_w

I don't have the tech skills to do a deep dive into the firmware code to confirm any of this but a plausible explanation of observations may be...

Whatever config values are set in readingAdobeOrphans & readingAdobeWidows will always override whatever values (if any) are present in <body>.

If readingAdobeOrphans & readingAdobeWidows are absent from config both default to a value of 2. In which case any widows/orphans values present in <body> will be overridden with a value of 2.

Any widows/orphans CSS hard-coded anywhere other than <body> should follow the normal rules of CSS inheritance and specificity.

Seems a correct deduction. However, how did you determined the orphans/widows setting to become "2"? Is this somewhere mentioned?

So summarizing, Kobo CSS evaluation is (according to you):

kobo hardcoded defaults,
epub CSS settings,
kobo config file settings.

in which each level is overriding the previous one.
And: the kobo config file settings only overrides the <body> orphans/widows settings.
Interesting

jackie_w · 03-01-2023, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Prior this thread, I never heard about this option before. You have inside information?

No inside information, but in those days we did have @davidfor (R.I.P.) which was almost as good.

See this post from 2020.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

It is also very kobo specific, so you still have to include orphans/widows in the CSS when you use other ereader devices.

Yes indeed. Every reading app (eink, Android etc) may have its own widows/orphans "solution". One-size-fits-all is pretty rare for anything CSS-related in my experience.

Personally I don't keep any widows/orphans CSS at all in my calibre master epubs. I auto-apply whatever is needed (if anything) during my send-to-device process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

Seems a correct deduction. However, how did you determined the orphans/widows setting to become "2"? Is this somewhere mentioned?

Tedious observation by paging through an epub, after having removed the config settings. A 3-line paragraph was never split across pages. A 4-line paragraph (if split at all) was only ever split 2 and 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrChiper

So summarizing, Kobo CSS evaluation is (according to you):

kobo hardcoded defaults,
epub CSS settings,
kobo config file settings.

in which each level is overriding the previous one.
And: the kobo config file settings only overrides the <body> orphans/widows settings.

Yes, except for item 1 (kobo hardcoded defaults), because I don't know what you mean by it.

03-01-2023, 06:35 AM	#23
DrChiper Bookish Posts: 1,017 Karma: 2003162 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: PC, t1, t2, t3, Clara BW, Clara HD, Libra 2, Libra Color, Nxtpaper 11	In addition, I should mention that because I had issues with so-called assumed "default" values, which did not seemed to contain the assumed default value at all (cannot remember whether it was Kobo / Sony / other), I always include at the top of my CSS the following: Code: * { margin: 0; padding: 0; line-height: normal; } The "line-height" is very necessary on using the font-family "Bitter Pro" (which is often my standard font), as otherwise the default line-height is annoyingly high. But as always, YMMV

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03-01-2023, 06:57 AM	#24
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,763 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	@DrChiper, please go o the following post and download the ePub I've posted and see if you get widows & orphans or not. Thanks. https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...&postcount=297