The Reading Vent & Rant Thread

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Nobody here will change their mind about this topic. Those of you that enjoy it, enjoy. Some of us, though...I tend to sample the first sex scene in a book and if it's as tedious or poorly-done as most, I skip it. I don't recall missing any crucial plot elements, thus far. :-) Somehow, I've still managed to read the book, get the gist and all that good stuff.

Hitch

I don't mind when people say they skip the sex scenes or are bored by them. What I do mind is trying to come off as morally superior to those of us who don't skip them. Not saying that you specifically do, but the word "prurient" clearly has a derogatory tinge and so has labelling other people as such.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

I don't mind when people say they skip the sex scenes or are bored by them. What I do mind is trying to come off as morally superior to those of us who don't skip them. Not saying that you specifically do, but the word "prurient" clearly has a derogatory tinge and so has labelling other people as such.

Fine, so then people are titillated by them. Right? That has no derogatory connotation, it's simply biological.

I don't feel morally superior to anybody. I just find that most--not all by any means--most defenses of how sex moves the plot forward are...lacking. That's all I'm saying.

Hitch

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Fine, so then people are titillated by them. Right? That has no derogatory connotation, it's simply biological.

I don't feel morally superior to anybody. I just find that most--not all by any means--most defenses of how sex moves the plot forward are...lacking. That's all I'm saying.

Hitch

No, titillating has the same tinge. You could have said "people don't want to admit they're interested in sex". That would have been neutral. And yes, I freely admit I'm moderately interested in sex, including sex in fiction. Why is that a bad thing? Why should it be a bad thing?

Not every scene in a book is meant to move the plot forward. Most descriptions don't. Many musings, thoughts and inner monologues of characters don't. Many dialogues don't. Yet they're all important parts of a novel. I don't see you railing against them.

[ownedbycats]

I tend to skim past sex scenes unless I come across some really odd phrasing. One of my favourite examples (though I don't remember if it was a published book or fanfic) was seeing the word "glorp."

[Pierre Lawrence]

Here's a link to Literary Review's annual Bad Sex in Fiction award, which is beyond hilarious on the subject:https://literaryreview.co.uk/bad-sex-in-fiction-award

[Pierre Lawrence]

I couldn't resist adding the Daily Beast's piece on the 2011 award winner, David Guterson, who narrowly beat out Stephen King. The link is:https://www.thedailybeast.com/david-...iction%20Award.

[hildea]

Originally Posted by Hitch

My attitude toward sex scenes is the same as my attitude toward ANY scene--if it doesn't propel the plot forward, nuke it.

My taste is very different One of my favourite book scenes is the epilogue in Bujold's "Shards of Honor": The story is all done, the plot is wrapped up, and the epilogue shows some completely different people who we've never met before and and will never meet again, doing something that has no impact on anything happening later in the series. Spoiler for "Shards of Honor":

Spoiler:

The protagonists have been central in a war, having major influence on who lost and won it. The epilogue shows two people who are picking up bodies from the battlefield, readying them for identification and burial, and is about grief and living on after losing loved ones.

There are exceedingly few things in Charles' list that aren't doable if you do the fade-to-black thing, either.

Oh, I agree. All of those things could be done without explicit sex, or without any sex at all. I don't think anyone here has argued that sex scenes are necessary (KJ Charles certainly doesn't in her blog post), just that sex scenes can be written in ways that advance plot and/or illuminate characters.

Now, her take is that "...that plot is character in action," and to some extent, I agree, but that take is also more suited to LitFic than to genre fiction.

Huh, that's interesting. Would you be willing to say a bit more about why/how you see "plot is character in action" is more suited to LitFic than genre fiction?
Especially for romance, which is (usually) centered on interactions and relationships between people, I think it fits very well.
Fantasy and SF more often have plots that spring from events external to the characters, but even then, in good books the plot is driven by how the characters respond to the (often dramatic) events, and the plot would go in very different directions if the main characters were different.

Nobody here will change their mind about this topic. Those of you that enjoy it, enjoy. Some of us, though...I tend to sample the first sex scene in a book and if it's as tedious or poorly-done as most, I skip it.

I don't think anyone's expecting to change others' tastes. I still think the discussion is interesting -- both seeing how others think and taking some time to spell out my own view.

My own view of violence in films is probably pretty close to your view of sex scenes. I usually get bored from long combat scenes, and I'll look away or fast forward through if there's too much explicit violence. It definitively puts me off if I feel the violence is included for its own sake, not for plot or character. Written violence bothers me much less, although that might be because I've mostly managed to avoid books with more violence than I can stomach. I've avoided Joe Abercrombie's books after reading some reviews about the violence in them.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by hildea

My taste is very different One of my favourite book scenes is the epilogue in Bujold's "Shards of Honor": The story is all done, the plot is wrapped up, and the epilogue shows some completely different people who we've never met before and and will never meet again, doing something that has no impact on anything happening later in the series.

That is one of my favourite passages from Bujold's writing. Though I somehow doubt that anyone would consider it a "sex scene".

[hildea]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Though I somehow doubt that anyone would consider it a "sex scene".

I agree, of course That part was a comment to "if it doesn't propel the plot forward, nuke it".

[Quoth]

"if it doesn't propel the plot forward, nuke it".

An extreme application of Chekov's Gun principle. Which is only a guideline, not a definite law.

There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are.
—W. Somerset Maugham

Maybe Stephen King knows.

I don't know, maybe there is value in explicit sex scenes in fiction (written, play, video/film). Perhaps people that like porn or erotic writing can explain, but I've only found it to detract.
The explicit sex scene in Uprooted (Novik) fantasy novel seems totally out of place and out of character for the author and character. Or some modern TV productions of older books that themselves have no explicit sex scene(s).

I've no difficultly with the mother dancing naked in the rain in "I Capture the Castle" in the book, and how it's done in the film is a separate issue, but why does the film version add a sunlit nude scene of the girl? It's not even suggested in the book.

I think whether or not it propels the plot is irrelevant. It's more complicated that that. Sometimes it seems as if the author or publisher or whoever just wants to be "edgy".

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I don't know, maybe there is value in explicit sex scenes in fiction (written, play, video/film). Perhaps people that like porn or erotic writing can explain, but I've only found it to detract.

And maybe there is value in depicting explicit violence in fiction. Perhaps people who like action and war fiction can explain. I certainly have no idea why it's so popular.

The thing is, people have different tastes. You don't like sex in fiction, fine. Nothing wrong with that. As long as you don't try to impose your preferences on all the others.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

And maybe there is value in depicting explicit violence in fiction. Perhaps people who like action and war fiction can explain. I certainly have no idea why it's so popular.

To an extent I agree.

Originally Posted by Sirtel

The thing is, people have different tastes. You don't like sex in fiction, fine. Nothing wrong with that. As long as you don't try to impose your preferences on all the others.

I'm not sure who that comment is aimed at?
I don't like ANY gratuitous out-of-context content that destroys the suspension of disbelieve. I don't remember writing that I don't like sex in fiction, but it seems out of place in some books. I gave an example where I thought it was inappropriate. I'm not going to complain about violence in books meant to be violent or explicit sex scenes in books where it would be expected. Whether I personally would buy such books or enjoy such books are different unrelated questions.

And I am against censorship of books, libraries and bookshops. Or social pressures that cause authors to self-censor.

I've stopped reading books on occasion because I found them annoying or boring or too badly written/proofed. Not because of any specific content.

[DNSB]

One of my favourite comments on sex scenes:

If the sex scene doesn’t make you want to do it—whatever it is they’re doing—it hasn’t been written right.—SLOAN WILSON

[hildea]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

And yes, I freely admit I'm moderately interested in sex, including sex in fiction. Why is that a bad thing? Why should it be a bad thing?

Not every scene in a book is meant to move the plot forward. Most descriptions don't. Many musings, thoughts and inner monologues of characters don't. Many dialogues don't. Yet they're all important parts of a novel.

I agree with all this, and I do find it mildly annoying (OK, maybe more than "mildly") that there seems to be a higher bar for sex scenes than for any other type of scenes.

Originally Posted by Quoth

The explicit sex scene in Uprooted (Novik) fantasy novel seems totally out of place and out of character for the author and character.

I had forgotten that, so I had to look it up to remind me of it. Spoilers for Uprooted:

Spoiler:

Hm, out of place? This is a book where the young women talk about the risk of rape at the beginning of the book, and the protagonist is worried about being raped by the scary magician she has to work for. I think there's also a rape attempt from a visiting noble?
During the book she grows in self confidence and power, and the Dragon becomes an ally instead of a frightening boss, enough that she takes the initiative in them having sex. I didn't reread everything preceding the sex scene, but as far as I remember it didn't seem out of place to me.
I didn't like that scene because I like Agnieszca and don't like the Dragon, and didn't feel like that relationship between them was a good outcome, though.

Originally Posted by DNSB

One of my favourite comments on sex scenes:

Heh, I don't agree with that either To me a sex scene is like any other scene, and a scene can be written very well without giving the reader any wish to take part in it. I'm very satisfied with my non-dramatic, mundane life, and have no desire whatsoever to live a life that would make me an interesting protagonist in a book

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by hildea

Heh, I don't agree with that either To me a sex scene is like any other scene, and a scene can be written very well without giving the reader any wish to take part in it. I'm very satisfied with my non-dramatic, mundane life, and have no desire whatsoever to live a life that would make me an interesting protagonist in a book

Yes, I totally agree with this. Moreover, I tend to prefer books that are pretty far removed from the here and now, and I have no wish to experience anything happening in them. That goes for sex scenes as well. I still read them, with interest if they're good, rolling my eyes if they're bad, just like any other scene.

I admit I don't really understand this aversion to sex scenes several posters have expressed. To me, they're like any other stuff in a book, and can be well or badly written. They're not necessary for me to enjoy a book, but they can enhance the enjoyment when well done, just like any other kind of scene.