Seriously thoughtful Contemplating the Onuissance

[Ceili]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Remember that although CFs save energy, they contain mercury and should be disposed of responsibly.

Most definitely! Remember also, that short of breaking a bulb, removal will not happen all that often. Check your local county facilities for drop off info on bulbs...or, if your county is a bit behind the times (as mine is) you can drop your expended (but not broken) CFL at any Home Depot store nationwide. Check with yours, but most just ask that you bring it to the returns desk and hand it over. I'm sure (or at least I hope) more stores offer this service, but this is the one I found when looking for local information for us.

[yvanleterrible]

Not to disagree but the expected life of CFs is over rated. I've been using them as primary lighting for almost ten years and I regularly have to change them. The heat they dissipate seems to cook the sealant around the base of the tube until it fails. So they last just about the same as a halogen.

Worse, when you remove a spent bulb, you really must be careful about hanging on to the transormer socket when twisting it off, because the glass will just come off.

[Ceili]

That's really weird! I admit I've had one bulb that didn't make it to year 6, but even then I can't complain. (knocking wood first) I haven't had any break in the socket or while taking them out and I hope my luck will continue to hold!

I'm sure they are like anything else, some will work well, some will not. But I really like the idea of rarely (if ever) coming home to a light that is out... of course, with the way I replaced the bulbs here... when one goes, they might All go and I'll be totally in the dark

[yvanleterrible]

I think for now the LED bulbs are the longer lasting ones. Pity though that the light colour is so crude .

[HarryT]

Although I have low-energy fluorescent bulbs for general-purpose lighting around my house, and have had for several years now, I must admit to using a "white light" halogen "spotlight" for reading, because I find the "yellow" light of the fluorescents far from ideal for that. Does anyone share my preference in that?

[LazyScot]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Doesn't that somewhat throw the proverbial spanner in the works as far as the idea of being "environmentally friendly" is concerned? Lead/acid batteries, which I presume (?) are used to store the electricity during the day, are an environment "disaster area" as far as manufacturing goes.

There are hydro-electic battery schemes, like the one in the Welsh mountain . Essentially this is a hydro-electic plant that can run backwards, and start up quickly. Clearly there is an environmental impact of constructing such a plant (damage to the environment, CO2 from concrete and construction), and I've no idea if this is better/worse than the equivalent for other battery technologies.

I also seem to remember (but can't find details) that there are tidal power schemes that are able to generate continually, albeit at a lower power rating.

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Not to disagree but the expected life of CFs is over rated. I've been using them as primary lighting for almost ten years and I regularly have to change them. The heat they dissipate seems to cook the sealant around the base of the tube until it fails. So they last just about the same as a halogen.

To back up Ceili's remarks, I've never noticed this with the ones I've got. They also seem to last a pretty long time -- we've mostly got these low energy bulbs, and have had for in excess of fifteen years. Of the c. 20 bulbs that are regularly used we've only really replaced 2. (And one that got broken due to mishap when moving house -- we mostly use lamps; I'm not cheap enough to take the bulbs when I move house.)

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Worse, when you remove a spent bulb, you really must be careful about hanging on to the transormer socket when twisting it off, because the glass will just come off.

Since we don't have a transformer, that either means I've mis-understood the type you have, or there is something different between our countries.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Although I have low-energy fluorescent bulbs for general-purpose lighting around my house, and have had for several years now, I must admit to using a "white light" halogen "spotlight" for reading, because I find the "yellow" light of the fluorescents far from ideal for that. Does anyone share my preference in that?

Hmm. I notice that some of the older bulbs (when a bulb we rarely use fails, I tend to replace it with a "pre-used" low energy bulb, and but a new one into the heavy usage spot) give a slightly different colour, and take a lot longer to warm up, but I've not really notice that. I know for "ordinary" fluorescent bulbs you can get much "whiter" daylight bulbs. Is there anything similar for the power saving lightbulbs.

As an aside on renewable energy generation, I remeber having a discussion with someone who lived on a Scottish Island that had a number of wind turbines installed. The net gain to the island was a bit of new road (that was in pretty good condition based on the prevaling standards of the island). Compare that with many other power stations (nuclear and non-nuclear): they give significant employment. I wonder how much of the opposition to some schemes is that they bring no employment to their "host" site.

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by LazyScot

Hmm. I notice that some of the older bulbs (when a bulb we rarely use fails, I tend to replace it with a "pre-used" low energy bulb, and but a new one into the heavy usage spot) give a slightly different colour, and take a lot longer to warm up, but I've not really notice that. I know for "ordinary" fluorescent bulbs you can get much "whiter" daylight bulbs. Is there anything similar for the power saving lightbulbs.

The white porcelain or plastic casing at the bottom of a bulb houses a transformer or ballast, which is the biggest component of CFs, one that still resists miniaturization.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Although I have low-energy fluorescent bulbs for general-purpose lighting around my house, and have had for several years now, I must admit to using a "white light" halogen "spotlight" for reading, because I find the "yellow" light of the fluorescents far from ideal for that. Does anyone share my preference in that?

I do too Harry.
There are bright white CFs now and I use them for paper, but I do prefer a halogen for eink.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by LazyScot

There are hydro-electic battery schemes, like the one in the Welsh mountain . Essentially this is a hydro-electic plant that can run backwards, and start up quickly. Clearly there is an environmental impact of constructing such a plant (damage to the environment, CO2 from concrete and construction), and I've no idea if this is better/worse than the equivalent for other battery technologies.

Yes, I actually mentioned this type of plant earlier, but you may not have recognised the name: it's called a "pump storage" plant. Basically, it pumps water uphill into a reservoir on the top of a mountain using "cheap" electricity in the early hours of the morning then, if a sudden increase in electricity is required (eg everyone goes to make a cup of tea at the end of "Coronation Street") it can be brought on-line in seconds - the reservoir sluices are opened, and the water, running back downhill again, turns a generator to generate power.

It's actually amazingly expensive to operate - its benefit comes from the fact that by having it there on "standby", you can take other types of plant that can't be brought into operation quickly, off-line, so overall you reduce your running costs. It's strictly a "last-ditch emergency reserve" type of power-plant.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, I actually mentioned this type of plant earlier, but you may not have recognised the name: it's called a "pump storage" plant.

Sounds like a water tower that alot of small towns here have. When there is more pressure than needed the level in the tower raises. When there is a large demand the gravity draws from the tower to meet demand.

BOb

[yvanleterrible]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, I actually mentioned this type of plant earlier, but you may not have recognised the name: it's called a "pump storage" plant. Basically, it pumps water uphill into a reservoir on the top of a mountain using "cheap" electricity in the early hours of the morning then, if a sudden increase in electricity is required (eg everyone goes to make a cup of tea at the end of "Coronation Street") it can be brought on-line in seconds - the reservoir sluices are opened, and the water, running back downhill again, turns a generator to generate power.

It's actually amazingly expensive to operate - its benefit comes from the fact that by having it there on "standby", you can take other types of plant that can't be brought into operation quickly, off-line, so overall you reduce your running costs. It's strictly a "last-ditch emergency reserve" type of power-plant.

That system would freeze to uselessness here in wintertime but it is a good idea for temperate regions that electricity providers can not reach.

[LazyScot]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, I actually mentioned this type of plant earlier, but you may not have recognised the name: it's called a "pump storage" plant. Basically, it pumps water uphill into a reservoir on the top of a mountain using "cheap" electricity in the early hours of the morning then, if a sudden increase in electricity is required (eg everyone goes to make a cup of tea at the end of "Coronation Street") it can be brought on-line in seconds - the reservoir sluices are opened, and the water, running back downhill again, turns a generator to generate power.

It's actually amazingly expensive to operate - its benefit comes from the fact that by having it there on "standby", you can take other types of plant that can't be brought into operation quickly, off-line, so overall you reduce your running costs. It's strictly a "last-ditch emergency reserve" type of power-plant.

Thanks for the info. Indeed I didn't know the name, and apologies for missing the mention. I didn't realise it was expensive to operate -- I assumed it was reasonably efficient in terms of power in versus power out. The wikipedia article seems accurate and interesting (okay, full of facts and numbers...!). I guess the power loss from such systems (15% to 30%, from wikipedia) ought to be factored into the intermittent power sources. Unless there is some factor that means different ones take over (e.g. tidal generators scattered across a coast allowing each one to cover any power provision gaps the others have).

We hear a lot about the life expectancy of nuclear power stations. What is the life expectancy of generators such as used in hydro-scheme, or wind farms?

[Xenophon]

I recently ran across a discussion on another list that is relevant here. Quoting:

From: Rahul Tongia <tongia.cmuATgmail.com>
Date: April 14, 2009 6:36:43 AM EDT
To: daveATfarber.net
Cc: ip <ipATv2.listbox.com>, [...]
Subject: Re: [IP] Re: The Smart Grid and Cybersecurity

Dave and David,

It's critical to get the issues of boundaries right.

Electricity T&D (transmission and distribution losses) in the US are only about 8%, or slightly lower, in the US. One has to be careful whether one is including conversion losses in *producing* the energy (in that case, the efficiency of a power plant is only some 30% for coal). Or, whether we are factoring in utilization losses. Lights, motors, etc. waste much of their energy.

For a REALLY NICE visual on energy flows, please see LLNL's work:
https://eed.llnl.gov/flow/images/LLN...y_Chart300.jpg
http://www.nap.edu/reports/energy/im...w_enlarged.gif

In terms of Distributed Generation, yes, it would cut down T&D losses but that is not enough to justify the loss of scale. In-between options may be better - not individual homes and not mega power plants. Of course, individual systems make a LOT of sense when we think of co-generation (combined heat and power). Netherlands leads the way with such systems. The drivers for DG aren't just losses, but system stability, security, and more.

Rahul

The two visuals he links to are really nice graphics showing inputs and outputs in terms of energy and percentages produced and consumed by various routes. Well worth looking at!

Xenophon

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

As long as smoking is legal, I see no cause to punish smokers any more than we should punish anyone for doing anything that is perfectly legal, and wihin their rights to do, no matter how repulsive it might be to us personally.

Why use loaded terms like punishment. Why not saying that you try to steer peoples behavior instead which is the intention?

[yvanleterrible]

On a related note:

There is a new blog about EVs, (Electric Vehicles) called Electric aid.
This web site is dedicated to the introduction of electric cars in the main stream. Not just the empty, overpriced promises given to us by most manufacturers. (remember? they are the ones part of the oil game...)

This blog proposes that you sign up for the purchase of an EV which ever one you choose. They give the example of the Think City that was promised by Ford (sic.) some time ago.

I drove the Think City in 2001 in Montreal. There was an EV symposium then and as a surprise for attendants, we were bussed to the Formula One Gilles Villeneuve race track to try 8 different cars. I tried the 4 most serious contenders. (Ford)Think City, Nissan Prairie, Ford Ranger pickup EV and A small Toyota (I don't remember the name). GM refused to have people drive that famous, now defunct EV1 of theirs available. If you were rich enough you could drive one on the city streets in Montreal.

I was sold right there and can't wait to own an EV. When you get to drive one, you'll be sold too...



Update.
The symposium I mention is the EVS-17 and took place in Montreal on 14-17 oct 2000

The Toyota was the e.com

The Nissan was the Altra EV built on a Nissan Prairie station Wagon.

The next symposium will be the EVS-24 in Stavanger Norway on the 13-16 May 2009. Unfortunately I won't be there.

[yvanleterrible]

Here are a few videos of the Think City.