Seriously thoughtful US/Europe Cultural Divide -- Musings

[Xenophon]

On a completely different front: someone much earlier posted that it's unusual for a discussion like this to change anyone's mind. I think that's probably true.

But I've been learning quite a bit about differences in outlook from the various sides of the Atlantic. And also within the US!

all for keeping it relatively polite and cordial, too!

Xenophon

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

But I've been learning quite a bit about differences in outlook from the various sides of the Atlantic. And also within the US!

Xenophon

What about the middle of the Pacific? What are we? Chopped liver?

[tirsales]

Regarding credit card vs debit card: continue here

wodin: Quoting OOTS?

[Greg Anos]

I'm not trying to get strung out on feudalism, any more than football. I'm just pointing out that after 1000 years of sociopolitical environment of social/power stratification and limited social mobility, you get a totally different risk tolerance/government importance/social perspective than you get in a country without a long historical perspective and long, relatively recent, open frontier period. Give us another 1000 years and we'll be just like Europe....(Unless we get cheap space travel, and then it'll be the old West all over again.)

[wodin]

Originally Posted by tirsales

wodin: Quoting OOTS?

___________

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I'm not trying to get strung out on feudalism, any more than football.

I apologize.

I'm just pointing out that after 1000 years of sociopolitical environment of social/power stratification and limited social mobility, you get a totally different risk tolerance/government importance/social perspective than you get in a country without a long historical perspective and long, relatively recent, open frontier period.

And I agree to this, though I dislike the (potentially unwanted?) judgmental tasting.

Originally Posted by wodin

___________

I apologize - I did not know that "What am I, chopped liver" (or similar) is a common statement (just googled it). I have only once seen this phrase in the webcomic "Order of the stick", and thus assumed you were quoting it.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

On a completely different front: someone much earlier posted that it's unusual for a discussion like this to change anyone's mind. I think that's probably true.

But I've been learning quite a bit about differences in outlook from the various sides of the Atlantic. And also within the US!

all for keeping it relatively polite and cordial, too!

Xenophon

That;s because this thread is about exploring/describing the cultural differences between the US and Europe, not with somebody demanding dominance for some fixed view....

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Lady Blue

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. And I'm not sure how to ask for clarification in response, so I'll just open my mouth and see what comes out. I'll apologize in advance if it makes no sense.

Sounds like you're talking about the need for children to start out on an equal footing with basic education no matter what their socioeconomic status, but they're not getting that opportunity because some people are saying they don't want to pay for the education of "other" children, only their own. I'm not sure I understand that, if it's indeed what you're saying.

We all in the U.S. pay for basic elementary public education from grades K-thru-12 through our property taxes. Even if we have no children, or are retired and our children are grown, we pay these school district taxes. So, like it or not, we're paying for the education of all the "other" children. I don't understand how, (aside from private schooling) the oppotunity for public education is not there for all.

I'm confused and I'm probably misunderstanding your whole point.

In New Hampshire, where I live, we don't yet have kindergarten in many communities. All schools are paid for by local (town or city) property taxes. Some towns have larger tax bases than others. Their schools are better. The state sets requirements for public education, but does not provide the funding. There have been a string of lawsuits about this over the years.

Additionally, the proportion of available money allocated toward schools in a specific town is likely to be heavily influenced by the age of the town's population. In towns with predominantly retired or single adults, schools get very short funding indeed.

We have evidence that smaller student-teacher ratios (and smaller classes in general) help students learn better. But many urban schools can't afford to hire enough teachers, so we still see 30-40 kids in a classroom with one teacher.

Finally, for the past 8 years, we've had a system that evaluates schools by comparing this year's students to last year's students (rather than each group of students to their own performance the previous year), using tests that tend to measure rote memorization rather than problem-solving skills, and punishes schools with underperforming students by withdrawing funding. There is more and more pressure to provide a "voucher" system to allow schools to "compete," when those vouchers will certainly not pay enough for a child to be able to go to the best schools, leaving the most disadvantaged students in a bankrupt public education system, while children whose parents can afford better compete to get an adequate education.

In short, we have two strong statistical correlations: one shows that level of education correlates strongly with income (though not at the doctoral level). The second shows that children of poor families have significantly lower academic achievement, all else being equal. But we highlight the unusual success stories and try to pretend that every child has an equal chance (or at least a reasonable chance) to "succeed" in our country.

As I said, I don't have the answers. I understand the point of view of those who think that self-interest is the strongest motivator for adults (though I'm not sure I agree). I understand those who would let able-bodied adults starve if they don't work (though I certainly don't agree). But children don't have a choice about which family they are born into. If they are born into a middle-class or wealthy family, they will probably have access to many advantages. But the working poor and lower-income groups face tremendous obstacles from birth including hunger, poor medical care, housing insecurity, and underfunded education. The system we have in the US works well for many... but not at all well for quite a large number.

There is probably no place in the world that offers a perfect solution, but I'd like to hear from some of our non-US members about how public education is handled, and whether you feel that helps or hinders your own people.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by tirsales

I apologize.

And I agree to this, though I dislike the (potentially unwanted?) judgmental tasting.

I apologize - I did not know that "What am I, chopped liver" (or similar) is a common statement (just googled it). I have only once seen this phrase in the webcomic "Order of the stick", and thus assumed you were quoting it.

Sorry, no judgemental tasting was implied, although my expression was probably less than perfect.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Gimme the jist of it, please.

Basically what you said, pay yourself first 10%. Don't borrow money for butter type items. Don't make risky investments unless it is "mad" money. I might by a Kindle copy because I can't find my pbook copy. It is worth a read every year or so.

BOb

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by nekokami

There is probably no place in the world that offers a perfect solution, but I'd like to hear from some of our non-US members about how public education is handled, and whether you feel that helps or hinders your own people.

Well, Germany is surely not the perfect example..
Every child has to go to school until (s)he is 18 - it is compulsory (and actually enforced by law and police, e.g. it is not allowed to tutor your kids at home and it is not possible to disallow them from going to school).
Nearly all schools are governmental, though there are some private schools (they have to adhere to governmental standards and exams). Governmental schools are paid by the federal state (in fact the state is giving money to the city which pays the school, but it results in the same).
Governmental schools are not allowed to charge fees, only some private schools do. (This is true for all kinds of schools).
Until quite recently universities were not allowed to charge fees, nowadays some federal states charge fees (roughly 500€ per semester), others dont.
As federal states pay the educational system (with help from the federal republic), there is not much difference on the "money per children" between different areas - but of course there are many other differences like e.g. social differences.

School itself is splitted into elementary school (4 years), an extending school (Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium, depending on examination results) follows. As the Hauptschule (Realschule) only spans 9(10) years, a "Berufsschule" is visited afterwards parallel to the apprenticeship. (Other possibilities include switching to a Gymnasium (multiple kinds exist), etc). Normally you can only study at a university if you made your completion at a Gymnasium (12/13 years in total). Yes, this means that if you spoiled elementary school and missed the Gymnasium, chances are, that you never will be able to study (there are some excemptions. It is possible to get the "Abitur" (completion of the Gymnasium) in evening school, it is possible to study certain topics after you finished an apprenticeship, etc)

[pilotbob]

Ok, so perhaps you guys/gals across the pond can explain a bidet to me. I don't get it.

You just spray your butt off? Then what, wait 20 minutes to dry. How do you know what you are doing, are there mirrors? Is there no such thing as a "skid mark" in the UK?

No really, I am serious. I never knew what to do with those things... some of the hotels I have stayed at have had them.

BOb

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Ok, so perhaps you guys/gals across the pond can explain a bidet to me. I don't get it.

only seen them twice so far.
Actually pretty easy and you use them exactly as you think: Sit on it / lean over it, turn on water, clean yourself, dry up afterwards - there you are. (Can be used to clean your feet as well, should not be used as a urinal).

[TheLongshot]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Interesting. I observe that a number of the largest medical insurance "companies" in the country are the various "Blues" (for example Blue Cross and Blue Shield of PA) -- which are non-profit organizations!

Not mine. Empire BCBS is for profit. The previous time I had BCBS it was Anthem, which is also for profit.

The economist I referred to earlier (whose name I still can't recall, darn it!) computed that the market equilibrium price for these various procedures would fall between the R&C price and the much lower amount Uncle Sam actually pays -- but a good deal closer to what Uncle Sam pays than to the R&C number.

Which tells me that there is something out of whack and it isn't just Uncle Sam that is to blame. Maybe if we do go to single source, maybe we can get to the equalibrium, if it is where the economist thinks it is.

Interesting. The providers I talk to here in Pittsburgh tell me that Medi* pays well below their actual costs. They also say that payments are slow-ish, ranging from a few days quicker than promised (I forget the official time-frame) to about 3 weeks late. By comparison, the better insurance companies pay R&C prices with prompt payment. The average ones pay R&C prices on a schedule that's modestly quicker than Medi*. The dregs of the insurance companies take up the vast bulk of the time and effort these providers spend dealing with insurance. The lousy insurers pull things like denying payment repeatedly until the provider bills the patient and the patient screams at the insurance company. Then the insurer sends the check to the wrong provider, thus delaying payment another 60 days! There are other paths, but this is a typically hideous example. The companies at the bottom appear to be really really sleazy!

It is hard to say. I know that with a past insurer that I had an outstanding balance with my dentist for a couple of months. I've also had errors where I've had to go back and talk with the doctor to clear up, and whatever they had to do wasn't exactly simple.

What I've been told, tho, is that the biggest issue isn't about when they get paid, but the different ways all these companies operate and not having any consistancy between the way they work. That's why a lot of doctors have decided not to deal with it anymore and have gone to managed care.

Finally, on the topic of gaming the system to make the most profit, my experience is that most people try to do the best they can within the rules of the game. When the game has rules that are arbitrary, baroque, and impenetrable, people appear to have no compunction about taking advantage of odd combinations of rules to get maximum benefit. And I am not sure that these individuals and companies are doing the wrong thing! (But the sleaze I described in the previous paragraph is clearly wrong...) Rather, I suspect that it's a symptom of a system that is at least partly broken and could use some fixing. Of course, I rather suspect that my idea of the right fixes diverges substantially from (say) Moejoe's -- and likely from most of our other European members as well.

Some do as you say, but I do think there are some that try to take advantage of the system, since the motivation in capitalism is to try to get as much profit as possible for your shareholders (for those companies that have shareholders, that is.) Certainly, doctors are mostly trying to get by and are the ones paying a lot for the byzantine system that we have now. While they certainly make money, it comes at a lot of pain that some just don't want to deal with. There are plenty of articles out there about the low job satisfaction of doctors.

Things do need to change in this country about health care and I think there is a lot to be learned from other countries about how they take care of the health of their people.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by tirsales

only seen them twice so far.
Actually pretty easy and you use them exactly as you think: Sit on it / lean over it, turn on water, clean yourself, dry up afterwards - there you are. (Can be used to clean your feet as well, should not be used as a urinal).

OK, I found some directions on line.. that are you supposed to use the TP prior to using the bidet. Which makes more sense. I always wondered about that. Also, it seems that some toilet fixtures have the bidet jet built into them.

But why this cultural difference?

BOb