Seriously thoughtful When Reasonable People Take Positions

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It can also be cultural differences too, Don. Eg, we Brits often come across as "rude" to Americans because we tend to be a lot "blunter" in our speech. Eg, in the UK if you want to say "Fred has died", then that's what you say. I've noticed that no American will ever say that - it's "Fred has passed away", "we've lost Fred", or any one of half a dozen other euphemisms. It's as if there's a "cultural taboo" about using the word "died".

I thought we were regarded as painfully polite - the stereotype being that we apologise if someone steps on our toes. And we never complain in shops.

And even within the UK, there are a variety of social tones - Yorkshire seen as blunt speaking, the Home Counties as anally polite, and theress everything in between.

I'm always impressed by the posters who don't have English as a first language - they often put the rest of us to shame.

[Greg Anos]

I notice the most heated thread around here revolved around perceived absolutist statements or positions. It may not have been intended to be perceived absolutist by the writer, or it may have been intended to be perceived that way by the writer. Either way, any absolutist viewpoint is going to attract a vigorous response. The best I can perceive reality is that there is very few things that one can speak of in absolutist terms and feel that it will not draw an opposing response. Reality is far too complex and contradictory to be able to state anything with absolute certainity. In addition, making an absolutist statement implies that the person stating it is not interested in discussion, but dominance. People who discuss things on the internet tend to be a rather libertarian bunch, and do not take well to dominace attitudes. So I see it. - RSE

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I notice the most heated thread around here revolved around perceived absolutist statements or positions. It may not have been intended to be perceived absolutist by the writer, or it may have been intended to be perceived that way by the writer. Either way, any absolutist viewpoint is going to attract a vigorous response. The best I can perceive reality is that there is very few things that one can speak of in absolutist terms and feel that it will not draw an opposing response. Reality is far too complex and contradictory to be able to state anything with absolute certainity. In addition, making an absolutist statement implies that the person stating it is not interested in discussion, but dominance. People who discuss things on the internet tend to be a rather libertarian bunch, and do not take well to dominace attitudes. So I see it. - RSE

I think you've touched upon some of the problems I perceive around the internet: The idea of dominance, one in which "my" views are absolutest; "I" am in command of the various views and here's why "I" think "my" view should be the dominant one.

I should say that I find the above position grossly disagreeable. It makes me not want to know that person or that person's views. I can't imagine that kind of person having much sense of empathy or of caring, so necessary in what defines us as "human."

But Harry also touched upon a reason: Some people are just rude and disagreeable by nature. Perhaps it's the way one's brain is wired. I wonder if this kind of person is normally an agreeable type, or is always so full of herself/himself that the world revolves around this type of personality.


Don

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

I think you've touched upon some of the problems I perceive around the internet: The idea of dominance, one in which "my" views are absolutest; "I" am in command of the various views and here's why "I" think "my" view should be the dominant one.

I should say that I find the above position grossly disagreeable. It makes me not want to know that person or that person's views. I can't imagine that kind of person having much sense of empathy or of caring, so necessary in what defines us as "human."

But Harry also touched upon a reason: Some people are just rude and disagreeable by nature. Perhaps it's the way one's brain is wired. I wonder if this kind of person is normally an agreeable type, or is always so full of herself/himself that the world revolves around this type of personality.


Don

In my observation (your mileage may differ), people who are just rude and disagreeable by nature don't tend to stay in ares where they get continually ignored. People with absolutist worldviews do, in essense to proslytise(win converts - I can't spell or type worth beans), and consider the disagreement as a necessary nuisance in order to win converts to their worldview.

[HarryT]

Isn't that the whole purpose of a debate, though; to put forward your viewpoint and try to convince others of the rightness of your position? I know that I've had my views modified by listening to others over the years - eg, I don't see the issue of piracy in such "black and white" terms as I used to when I first joined MR - and perhaps I may have brought a few people around to my point of view too. You win some, you lose some, as the saying goes.

[Moejoe]

I believe the cultural divide between Europe and America has a lot to do with recent debates, and the stances taken on both sides. Citizens of both cultures by their very surroundings have trouble understanding the mores and societal norms of the other.

As a British Citizen and a European, some of the views recently expressed in those debates are so abhorrent by European standards that it's hard not to respond in kind. But I would expect that the views that travel in the opposite direction have just as much of an effect on American citizens.

The question remains, how do you heal such a cultural chasm between two distinct cultures? Can it be healed? Should it?

[Xenophon]

I wanted to add that I've quite enjoyed disagreeing with ZeroSpinBoson and MoeJoe (on most things) and DesertGrandma and RickyMaveety (on some things). They mostly keep their cool, and respond to my blatherings with useful stuff like:
"Yes, but have you considered <problem-I-may-well-not-have-thought-of>"
or
"But these references <refs> say ..."

and other mostly-thoughtful responses. And they don't get upset when I attempt to introduce facts into a discussion (often a total no-no on many sites). It's been a pleasure, folks.

Xenophon

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

I wanted to add that I've quite enjoyed disagreeing with ZeroSpinBoson and MoeJoe (on most things) and DesertGrandma and RickyMaveety (on some things). They mostly keep their cool, and respond to my blatherings with useful stuff like:
"Yes, but have you considered <problem-I-may-well-not-have-thought-of>"
or
"But these references <refs> say ..."

and other mostly-thoughtful responses. And they don't get upset when I attempt to introduce facts into a discussion (often a total no-no on many sites). It's been a pleasure, folks.

Xenophon

i have got upset quite a few times (much to my own shame), but I must agree, your posts have been well thought out (better than my own) and always interesting to read, even when I disagree. Kudos to you for keeping your head, when I can't seem to keep my own

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I believe the cultural divide between Europe and America has a lot to do with recent debates, and the stances taken on both sides. Citizens of both cultures by their very surroundings have trouble understanding the mores and societal norms of the other.

As a British Citizen and a European, some of the views expressed are so abhorrent by European standards that it's hard not to respond in kind. But I would expect that the views that travel in the opposite direction have just as much of an effect on American citizens.

The question remains, how do you heal such a cultural chasm between two distinct cultures? Can it be healed? Should it?

Well, it's perfectly clear that you are hopelessly confused and need to be enlightened so that you can understand what's really good for you! After all, those views aren't your fault -- you can't help having been raised a European, right?

Sorry. I just can't keep a straight face on this front any more.

I'm not sure how to heal such a cultural chasm. But perhaps some respectful explanation (and even debate) of positions might help...

Xenophon

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

i have got upset quite a few times (much to my own shame), but I must agree, your posts have been well thought out (better than my own) and always interesting to read, even when I disagree. Kudos to you for keeping your head, when I can't seem to keep my own

Aw shucks... <blush> Just trying to have a good time with a stimulating discussion.

Xenophon

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Well, it's perfectly clear that you are hopelessly confused and need to be enlightened so that you can understand what's really good for you! After all, those views aren't your fault -- you can't help having been raised a European, right?

Sorry. I just can't keep a straight face on this front any more.

I'm not sure how to heal such a cultural chasm. But perhaps some respectful explanation (and even debate) of positions might help...

Xenophon

It's easy to fix. All Americans must now have tea, with plenty of milk and sugar, at 4pm every day. That'll solve it!

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

It's easy to fix. All Americans must now have tea, with plenty of milk and sugar, at 4pm every day. That'll solve it!

And Europeans will have an evening meal of enchaladas and chalupas....

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

And Europeans will have an evening meal of enchaladas and chalupas....

Mmmmm Are you buying?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Mmmmm Are you buying?

For my friends across the water, SURE! Enchaladas, hot chili, and a Guinuess Double Stout. A great food and drink pairing....

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

For my friends across the water, SURE! Enchaladas, hot chili, and a Guinuess Double Stout. A great food and drink pairing....

Well count me in But I'd like a pint of John Smith's Best Bitter instead of Guiness, ta very much