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Old 04-08-2009, 07:19 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Whether or not it's a problem, Nate, depends what the circumstances are in which it's done. I am sure that there ARE rules which trigger the ban, rather than it being "capricious" ("erratic", "done at a whim") as you claim. We don't know what those rules are, so we cannot really make an informed judgement on the issue.

I am prepared to accept that, given the stated circumstances in this particular case (refunds requested for two TVs and "several" DSLRs), Amazon might feel sufficiently suspicious of this person to "pull the plug", even though they did decide to reverse the decision.

We really don't have enough facts to be able to make a generalization as to whether the practice is problematic or not - IMHO.

Let me ask you: are there no circumstances in which you would consider it acceptable to terminate someone's account for suspicious activity? Buying 10 expensive TV sets one after the other and returning each one? 20? 50? 100? Most reasonable people would accept, I think, that there is a "line" which can be crossed.
You are SOOO missing the point here

The point is not whether Amazon should or shouldn't be able to cancel customer accounts. The point is whether they are providing sufficient transparency for what the policies are, and what is an acceptable use of the account and what is not.

If it is not okay with Amazon that people buy multiple expensive items and then return them ... why let them return those items in the first place ? And then go ahead and ban them for violating some unspecified rules that apparently only Amazon is aware of ? Why not warn the customers as part of the checkout process itself that if they buy this item, they may not be able to return it, or will have to pay certain re-stocking fees etc. ? That would be perfectly okay.

Also, if someone is repeatedly purchasing and returning items - why not warn them after the first one or two incidents that they are no longer welcome to do that or their account will be canceled !

Instead of clarifying their position, Amazon instead is using this underhanded practice of being very lenient till one point and then suddenly when it is not okay with them, pull the plug completely and leave people with valid digital purchases dead in the water.

While I do not return a lot of stuff to vendors, I certainly like to have the assurance that I can return an item if their ever is a valid need. That's why by principle I avoid purchasing items from companies that have very strict return policies or impose undue re-stocking fees etc. I fully respect those companies for being upfront about their policies though. Also, I believe I end up buying more than really is necessary from companies I like to do business with because I know I can return the stuff if needed ... even though it is rarely the case that I actually end up returning ... so because of lenient return policies, these companies actually end up getting more business from me and not less.

What Amazon is doing is deliberately not being clear about their policies, and creating this false sense of security that they have a very lenient return policy and luring unsuspecting customers into purchasing more and more -- and then if they actually try to return something that is not okay with Amazon, they are going into the other extreme. That is EXTREMELY DECEIVING and I will NEVER trust a company that does this ! Whether they have the right to do this or not is insignificant ... at least as far as I am concerned.

Last edited by rana; 04-08-2009 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:34 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
... their response to Ian's querying it shows that they have an efficient system for responding to the resulting queries ...
To borrow your own words "One instance does not a pattern make"

If you had done some research on this topic, you'd have easily found out that Amazon has reinstated accounts on very very few cases. In most cases they have simply sent a canned response and then did not even bother responding ... even when people seemed to have perfectly legitimate reasons. Please don't be under the misconception that just because Amazon reinstated Ian's account, they are doing so for others who have a valid reason and are asking politely.

Kind of makes me wonder if Ian's account being re-instated had something to do with his starting this thread at MR Wouldn't be surprised if Amazon spies here are trying to do some PR damage control
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:14 PM   #168
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If I buy things online, I buy from a store that has the following combination and I'm ranking them in order: lowest total price, reputable business, return policy. In many cases, Amazon.com is the one I buy from. But, it's not because I feel loyal to them but it's because they generally offer the best combination of the features I mentioned above. But, I also buy from abebooks.com when they have lower price books.
JFYI, Abebooks is now owned by Amazon.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:39 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Mr. Goodbar View Post
I have historically done quite a bit of business with them, but I'm seriously starting to re-think some of that.
Me, too. It's kind of funny - before the K2 came out, I'd made a lot of purchases with Amazon, and generally been satisfied. So when the K2 went on the market, I got in line to buy one. But while I was waiting, I ran across a Sony 505 at Borders, tried it out, and eventually decided that it was a better product for my uses than the K2.

Still, I had a good opinion of Amazon. But then they backed off of the voice-reading feature of the K2, and I began to wonder about them a little.

And then came that episode in which they illegitimately used a takedown notice here on mobileread to deal with their kindlepid.py (or whatever it's called) problem.

And now this, where they are revealing the chances their ebook customers are taking.

In business, the relationship a store has with its customers is called "goodwill." They've lost mine. Not that they care, of course.

But I read my 505 on the bus, and people ask me if it's a Kindle. And I'll be telling them, "no, anyone who buys a Kindle is taking a big risk. My advice is not to buy from Amazon." And I'll tell them Ian's story.

Last edited by Harmon; 04-08-2009 at 11:56 PM. Reason: I'll keep editing till I get that kindlepatootie thing right...
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:48 PM   #170
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I would suggest you shop at Nordstroms. They will happily take any and every return you have for any reason (of course it is built into the purchase price). That is the store for you return-happy people.
I recommend Hammacher Schlemmer. You pay full price, but you get full service & a no-questions-asked refund. Had I realized that the ebook they sell was the Sony 505, I'd have bought it there.

Another is Eddie Bauer.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:52 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Gideon View Post
Don't think for a second, those of you so inclined, that Sony couldn't turn the spigot off as well. if you are purchasing DRM books this is always a risk you have. That is the great evil of DRM.

So don't get too smug. Sony could decide not to do further business with you as well. As could anyone else.
So it turns out that the inability of my mac to run the Sony Bookstore software, thus preventing me from buying books from them for my 505, is not a bug, but a feature!
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:57 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Gideon View Post
Don't think for a second, those of you so inclined, that Sony couldn't turn the spigot off as well. if you are purchasing DRM books this is always a risk you have. That is the great evil of DRM.
Which is why it's best to not buy anything you can't un-infect or that's, even better, DRM free.




I've found that even though I have a Kindle I only buy DRM stuff from Amazon about half the time. Often I can get a better deal from FW or BoB for my DRM purchases.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:01 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Gideon View Post
Well, we shouldn't be declaring any particular case right or wrong. We don't know.

But assuming good faith... doesn't hurt.
Yeah, but what Ian's story did for me was open a window through which I see that Amazon is doing this sort of thing to a lot of other people.

And as you pointed out in one of your posts, it's not just what they are doing, it's how they do it - cutting everyone off with no avenue of appeal, discontinuing the accounts so that books and movies bought and paid for can't be retrieved, refusing to refund the balances represented by gift cards, & so forth. This is not behavior I value in companies I buy things from.

So even if Ian is pulling the wool over our eyes, he's revealed something about Amazon that I will remember in making my buying decisions. I no longer regard them as a reliable and trustworthy seller.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:11 PM   #174
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I had. Someone posted the consumerist article about a massive bannage and I remembered reading it.
I found the comments in that article quite interesting. Apparently many of the banned folks were going way beyond excessive returns. They were doing things like sharing their Prime memberships with lots of people, registering multiple accounts to use more "one per household" deals, even sometimes using Amazon as a kind of drop ship for Ebay orders by holding things by paying with a check and then selling the item on ebay. Now I'm seeing why they mentioned things such as related accounts. I would imagine they're not interested in the dozen addresses I have in my account that I ship to repeatedly. They'd be interested if I were constantly adding new ones.

Last edited by Alisa; 04-09-2009 at 01:39 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:35 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Is it? Access was blocked due to suspicious activity. Credit card companies do the same thing all the time.
That's certainly true. My wife had that happen to her just the other day. The "suspicious" activity was that (1) I had made an internet purchase under $50 the day before and (2) the grocery chain store at which she was trying to spend $120 was not the same one we usually buy at. Somehow, that tripped their computer's fraud program. What I took away from that is "always carry two credit cards. Maybe three. Particularly if you are away from home."

Quote:
I don't see that one can "blame" Amazon for it; their response to Ian's querying it shows that they have an efficient system for responding to the resulting queries, and that's what seems to me to matter.
It's not a question of "blame." It's a question of how Amazon seems to be doing business on a number of fronts. They don't seem to be interested in the collateral damage their actions cause, which tells me that they have become imbued with an attitude of arrogance that should make anyone cautious in dealing with them.

Anyone who has a Kindle has given Amazon a hostage.

Quote:
It makes me happy, as an Amazon customer, that they DO do this, to tell you the truth.
Why does this matter to you?

Last edited by Harmon; 04-09-2009 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:40 PM   #176
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If I was on the fence about the Kindle before (which I wasn't), I'd be off that fence like a shot now, and heading for more open devices. Why invest in a device that can be so easily bricked, depriving you of further use (or potentially, of the use of products you've already purchased) when you can get a device that reads multiple formats and is not tied so tightly to a restrictive service?
All good points. But in the long run, which keeps getting shorter, any electronic device is bricked by technological change. I have a nice little Mac Color Classic that believe it or not is still running. It runs well, but it can't run much anymore.

It's the format that has to be open, don't you think? Else we readers are just renting our ebooks. (I'm beginning to think that this is the reality.)

Last edited by Harmon; 04-09-2009 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:51 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by thibaulthalpern View Post
In many cases, Amazon.com is the one I buy from. But, it's not because I feel loyal to them but it's because they generally offer the best combination of the features I mentioned above. But, I also buy from abebooks.com when they have lower price books.
Either way, you are buying from or through Amazon - I believe Amazon owns abebooks now. And I'm not happy about that, frankly.

On the loyalty point - given your definition, I would agree. But I think that when people talk about loyalty to a company from which they buy products, they have a different definition - something more along the lines that they find qualities other than (or in addition to) price to be important, including quality of the product, efficiency of service, and fair treatment for the customer.

Amazon is blowing the "fair treatment" component.

Last edited by Harmon; 04-09-2009 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 04-09-2009, 01:23 AM   #178
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I am SO very glad that I decided to get a Sony Reader now instead of a Kindle.
On the other hand, remember that Sony used to have a music store and then they closed it down. If you bought copy-protected music from their store, and you have since bought a new music player, you are now out of luck. Unless of course, you remove the DRM yourself.

As I said earlier, Ian's story is simply an illustration of why DRM is anti-consumer. It doesn't matter who you buy your reader from. If the content is locked you face potential headaches down the road. And you are at the whim of whatever changes are made by your content provider.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:18 AM   #179
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Why does this matter to you?
Because by blocking the activies of scammers, they keep prices lower for everybody else. The inevitable consequence of many people returning large numbers of high-ticket items would be higher prices for all their customers.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:17 AM   #180
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I found the comments in that article quite interesting. Apparently many of the banned folks were going way beyond excessive returns. They were doing things like sharing their Prime memberships with lots of people, registering multiple accounts to use more "one per household" deals, even sometimes using Amazon as a kind of drop ship for Ebay orders by holding things by paying with a check and then selling the item on ebay. Now I'm seeing why they mentioned things such as related accounts. I would imagine they're not interested in the dozen addresses I have in my account that I ship to repeatedly. They'd be interested if I were constantly adding new ones.
Oh I'm sure a ton of them deserved it. But when you through a Kindle in the mix, it's a wake up call, you know?
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