Quotes and blockquote

[hobnail]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

They're not needed in epub3 books that contain HTML5 files

Ah, thanks. That's what I'm using/making.

[hobnail]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

@Doitsu is correct - epubcheck v4.2.6 gives an error (actually 2 errors) if a <blockquote> tag in an EPUB2 contains text, but no error, for the same markup, if it's in an EPUB3.

Calibre's Check Book utility doesn't show an error for either EPUB2 or EPUB3. To the best of my knowledge, calibre tries to pay more attention to flagging errors that may cause actual problems in actual ereader apps than whether the (over-fussy???) rules of epubcheck are strictly followed.

Thanks. Yes, I was testing with epub 3.

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I cannot stand those fake blockquotes. The following CSS code is what I use for blockquotes.

blockquote {
  margin-top: 1em;
  margin-right: 1.5em;
  margin-bottom: 1em;
  margin-left: 1.5em;
}

If the blockquote ends at the bottom of the page, I use the following code.

.blockquote {
  margin-top: 1em;
  margin-right: 1.5em;
  margin-bottom: 1em;
  margin-left: 1.5em;
}

<blockquote class="blockquote">
<p>"This is at the end of the chapter"</p>
</blockquote>

Can you explain the difference between blockquote and blockquote.blockquote here? I get you're using the latter only occasionally but I'm missing what it's meant to do.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

Can you explain the difference between blockquote and blockquote.blockquote here? I get you're using the latter only occasionally but I'm missing what it's meant to do.

If the blockquote ends at the end of the chapter, then there is some whitespace after the end of the last line. This means that it's possible for there to be a blank screen before the next chapter.

<blockquote class="blockquote"> (using the CSS I posted for .blockquote) has a bottom margin of 0. That means no whitespace after the last line of the blockquote at the end of the chapter.

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If the blockquote ends at the end of the chapter, then there is some whitespace after the end of the last line. This means that it's possible for there to be a blank screen before the next chapter.

<blockquote class="blockquote"> (using the CSS I posted for .blockquote) has a bottom margin of 0. That means no whitespace after the last line of the blockquote at the end of the chapter.

Oh, ok. Interesting, I’d have thought margin at the bottom of an element at the end of a chapter would work like margin at the top of an h1 at the beginning. Good info. But I think you had a typo, your example did include a bottom margin in blockquote.blockquote.

[Karellen]

Hi all, and thank you for the responses. I have noted your comments and have been playing with the blockquote and I will be using it in future instead of a "fake" quote.

Originally Posted by hobnail

I didn't get an error from epubcheck when I made a block quote with no p tags in it.

Also, this page says they're not always needed; see the bottom paragraph:

https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-...e-element.html

Thanks for that link. I have tried using both the blockquote tag on its own as well as adding the p child tags. I found that when using the p child tags, I get a double margin. Using the Live CSS previewer, I am having difficulty narrowing down where the extra margin is coming from. I guess I'll have to create a class rule for the p tag when used in a blockquote to negate the extra margin. See images

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I've always used blockquote when it is a longer quote...typically two or more paragraphs. I think that is why people are used to using the <p> tags inside of a blockquote. If it was a single paragraph then it's easier to just style the individual paragraph:

Thanks Turtle91, I'll use the blockquote in future. I'll play around with your rules.
Its weird because I have looked back at some other books I have reformatted, and the quotes using the same class rule work in some books, but not in others. I cannot see what is causing it. My stylesheet.css is copied from book to book, with only minor changes (italics for a heading for example)

I don't see a setting for Publisher's styling or similar. Only a setting for Publishers Default for font.

Originally Posted by Doitsu

They're not needed in epub3 books that contain HTML5 files

What makes a xhtml file a HTML5 file?

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If the blockquote ends at the end of the chapter, then there is some whitespace after the end of the last line. This means that it's possible for there to be a blank screen before the next chapter.

<blockquote class="blockquote"> (using the CSS I posted for .blockquote) has a bottom margin of 0. That means no whitespace after the last line of the blockquote at the end of the chapter.

Thanks for that pointer. I'll be aware of that.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I cannot stand those fake blockquotes. The following CSS code is what I use for blockquotes.

blockquote {
  margin-top: 1em;
  margin-right: 1.5em;
  margin-bottom: 1em;
  margin-left: 1.5em;
}

If the blockquote ends at the bottom of the page, I use the following code.

.blockquote {
  margin-top: 1em;
  margin-right: 1.5em;
  margin-bottom: 1em;
  margin-left: 1.5em;
}

<blockquote class="blockquote">
<p>"This is at the end of the chapter"</p>
</blockquote>

PLEASE tell me you are making a joke....pleeeease


Edit:
OK, I didn't see this second page when I first posted. You explained it was at the bottom of a chapter and not the page...so that makes more sense. And, phillipgessert already mentioned that there was no difference in the css...so at least I'm not going outta my mind. Sometimes I just can't tell if you are saying something to be funny - like I do at home all the time!!

Although if it were me I would give it a more descriptive class name so you can understand what it is: <blockquote class="bottomOfChapter">

Cheers!

[phillipgessert]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

PLEASE tell me you are making a joke....pleeeease


Edit:
OK, I didn't see this second page when I first posted. You explained it was at the bottom of a chapter and not the page...so that makes more sense. And, phillipgessert already mentioned that there was no difference in the css...so at least I'm not going outta my mind. Sometimes I just can't tell if you are saying something to be funny - like I do at home all the time!!

Although if it were me I would give it a more descriptive class name so you can understand what it is: <blockquote class="bottomOfChapter">

Cheers!

Bet he just forgot to pull that out of a copypaste. But on the naming thing, I’m getting fond of calling all one-offs .exception to preserve my sanity. But I can see naming such things after the element. Sort of a similar philosophy (very easy to remember, very easy to target).

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

@Doitsu is correct - epubcheck v4.2.6 gives an error (actually 2 errors) if a <blockquote> tag in an EPUB2 contains text, but no error, for the same markup, if it's in an EPUB3.

If working on a book with lots of blockquotes that just have text, no child tags, and want epubcheck to stop whining about them, you can define.

div.blockquote {margin:1em;}

Then S&R <blockquote> to <div class="blockquote"> and </blockquote> to </div>
Add other formatting (font-size, text-align, text-indent) to the def to taste.
Div will work equally with raw text or child tags.

Often blockquote tags are used not for actual quotes, but as a way to add margins to e.g. a dedication. Bad form generally, but it will work even if CSS is ignored.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by phillipgessert

Can you explain the difference between blockquote and blockquote.blockquote here? I get you're using the latter only occasionally but I'm missing what it's meant to do.

I didn't take out the bottom margin. My mistake. Here is the corrected style.

.blockquote {
  margin-top: 1em;
  margin-right: 1.5em;
  margin-bottom: 0;
  margin-left: 1.5em;
}

That means no blank space after the last line of the chapter and no chance of a blank page/screen because of this.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

If working on a book with lots of blockquotes that just have text, no child tags, and want epubcheck to stop whining about them, you can define.

div.blockquote {margin:1em;}

Then S&R <blockquote> to <div class="blockquote"> and </blockquote> to </div>
Add other formatting (font-size, text-align, text-indent) to the def to taste.
Div will work equally with raw text or child tags.

Often blockquote tags are used not for actual quotes, but as a way to add margins to e.g. a dedication. Bad form generally, but it will work even if CSS is ignored.

A blockquote should not be replaced with a div. It should be left alone. It's much better code. I replace the divs with blockquotes.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A blockquote should not be replaced with a div. It should be left alone. It's much better code. I replace the divs with blockquotes.

I agree with the spirit, if not the letter.

Perhaps a better way of stating this would be:

A blockquote should not be replaced with a div if it actually IS a blockquote. It should be left alone. It's much better code. It is more syntactically correct coding. I replace the divs with blockquotes when blockquotes are actually being used by the author. If it's not obviously a blockquote, then I defer to the author and leave it as a div.

...because, honestly, it just doesn't matter. With the correct CSS you can make almost any element look like any other element...it's just making the descriptors match the document structure. edit:

[/pedantry]

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I agree with the spirit, if not the letter.

Perhaps a better way of stating this would be:



...because, honestly, it just doesn't matter. With the correct CSS you can make almost any element look like any other element...it's just making the descriptors match the document structure.

[/pedantry]

Not to indulge my inner pedant, but if we don't make clear our intentions, we make it harder for those who get stuck editing our work come after us to work with those ePUBs. I mean, at what point are we just Calibre (p class=25, class=26)?

We can and should do better, if for no other reason than trust me, in one-two years, you won't remember what the hell you thought you were doing with span class X and p class Y. :-) I learnt that lesson long ago, when I got back ePUBs for revision and thought "what the holy hell was I thinking?" Better to use commenting and to clearly name what we're doing. Laziness is all well and good if it won't come back to bite you in the ass, but in my line of work, I can say that ass-biting is all too often a result.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Not to indulge my inner pedant, but if we don't make clear our intentions, we make it harder for those who get stuck editing our work come after us to work with those ePUBs. I mean, at what point are we just Calibre (p class=25, class=26)?

We can and should do better, if for no other reason than trust me, in one-two years, you won't remember what the hell you thought you were doing with span class X and p class Y. :-) I learnt that lesson long ago, when I got back ePUBs for revision and thought "what the holy hell was I thinking?" Better to use commenting and to clearly name what we're doing. Laziness is all well and good if it won't come back to bite you in the ass, but in my line of work, I can say that ass-biting is all too often a result.

Hitch

Very well said.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Not to indulge my inner pedant, but if we don't make clear our intentions, we make it harder for those who get stuck editing our work come after us to work with those ePUBs. I mean, at what point are we just Calibre (p class=25, class=26)?

We can and should do better, if for no other reason than trust me, in one-two years, you won't remember what the hell you thought you were doing with span class X and p class Y. :-) I learnt that lesson long ago, when I got back ePUBs for revision and thought "what the holy hell was I thinking?" Better to use commenting and to clearly name what we're doing. Laziness is all well and good if it won't come back to bite you in the ass, but in my line of work, I can say that ass-biting is all too often a result.

Hitch

Lolz!!! Sorry I forgot to put the sarcasm emoji on that last sentence. (fixed now) My intent was to head off the argument against by those who will nay-say my syntactic CDO (OCD in the proper alphabetic order).