Wha'happen with ePUB4? Anybody know?

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Y'know, I should have remembered not to inadvertently start this argument.

Many of us, me included, didn't go wild for multimedia, but let's be fair, ePUB3 does have a lot of other functionality. I am glad of that functionality, particularly for reading direction, etc. I would love it if ePUB3 would mature. Would be loverly, to coin a phrase. :-)

Hitch

Yes to all of that!

[Turtle91]

Sooo, I know Sigil has a plug-in to save an ePub 2 to ePub 3, but if I wanted to go crazy and learn what the differences are…. In simple terms, not the spec, is there an easy to read tutorial or something I can be pointed to???

[KevinH]

Not as much as you think for basic fiction style epubs ...

Take a epub2 that passes epubcheck, and make a Checkpoint using Sigil. Then pass it through both the ePub3-itizer and Access-Aide. Make sure to use Sigil's epub3 tools to update the ncx from the Nav, update any manifest properties.

Make sure it passes epubcheck again. Then run a Checkpoint compare against the epub2 checkpoint you made.

You will see the Nav replacing the NCX, different metadata in the OPF, improved semantics, use of aria-roles and alt attributes for images (general accessibility improvements, etc).

You can then extend this with new tags such as audio, and video tags, sections, aside, etc, You can use full CSS 3. You can include smil files to sync audio and video, you can use javascripts, etc. You can set and use extended semantics....

[DiapDealer]

Also remember that there's very little worry about "supporting" EPUB3 on older devices when it comes to text-based novels. So long as there is a fall-back opf (and they don't get ridiculous with their css), most EPUB2 engines will render them just fine.

I'm ecstatic to see a lot of the "EPUB3 is the devil!" nonsense fading away. It was like the ability to handle multimedia was somehow going to force all EPUBs to include multimedia.

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Sooo, I know Sigil has a plug-in to save an ePub 2 to ePub 3, but if I wanted to go crazy and learn what the differences are…. In simple terms, not the spec, is there an easy to read tutorial or something I can be pointed to???

You'll find a short epub3 overview in the Apple Books Asset Guide. It's obviously somewhat Apple-centric.

Pretty much the only thing that you'll need to pay attention to is that you can't use named entities in HTML 5 files. For example, you'll need to use   instead of  .

You'll also need to add the proper name space attribute, if you want to use epub:type attributes to define page numbers or footnotes.

And when you're done with your epub3 book, you might want to select Tools > Epub3 Tools > Generate NCX/Guide for epub2 e-readers.

[Turtle91]

Awesome - thanks all!

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by KevinH

We have had this argument before. Epub3 is the leading format in Japan, and in countries with rtl, and vertical languages, is much better for accessibility in many ways and allowing synchronized reading of audio with text, and of course a broad range of video. Epub3 can be converted to Kindle formats as well. Is supported by Readium SDK, the Thorium Reader, ADE 3, iBooks, etc.

Epub2 is basically dead outside the US and a few other places stuck with slow and old devices. Good riddance.

As far as ADE 3 goes, I would say that ePub 3 support is pretty poor. I would go with ADE 4.x for decent ePub 3 support.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by salamanderjuice

Multimedia is a mistake but ePub 3 is more than just multimedia. Some languages just don't work well or at all with ePub 2 due to lack of vertical writing and right to left support. Plus the addition of MathML for science/math textbooks. If you can actually reflow and resize a math/science textbook there's no reason it can't work on a 6" screen but with many titles still shipping horrid versions that use images for equations for kindles/ancient readers that are almost always blurry AND the wrong size to surrounding text often considerably so. This is especially bad after being used to crispy gorgeous TeX-made PDFs.

Way back in the early days of ePub 2, I did see a scientific document that was brilliant. It reflowed and the math was done with SVG. There was no need for PDF. It reflowed and the math resized correctly. It displayed no problem on a 6" eInk screen.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

KF7

KF7 is not the correct name. It's Mobi (for short) or Mobipocket (for the full name). What most call AZW3 is actully KF8. I've nevr seen anyplace where Amazon refer to Mobi as KF7. I've only seen KF7 used outside of Amazon and unless Amazon use it officially, it's incorrect.

Just like whoever came up KOA for the Oasis when it should really be KO3 (for the current model).

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Way back in the early days of ePub 2, I did see a scientific document that was brilliant. It reflowed and the math was done with SVG. There was no need for PDF. It reflowed and the math resized correctly. It displayed no problem on a 6" eInk screen.

That--that would be beyond brilliant. I cannot tell you how incredibly awful it is, to see, for example, a 400-page treatise on Thermodynamics, or this or that, show up in my shop. I have to charge THE EARTH, for one thing--which is all well and good, but I don't feel great about it--to make an eBook that only half-assed works, particularly for KDP. It's frustrating as hell. I would luv luv luv to see full-tilt boogie MathML, etc. support across the board. I wish that would be the very next thing that would take focus, instead of multimedia. (SOOO frustrating!).

Originally Posted by JSWolf

KF7 is not the correct name. It's Mobi (for short) or Mobipocket (for the full name). What most call AZW3 is actully KF8. I've nevr seen anyplace where Amazon refer to Mobi as KF7. I've only seen KF7 used outside of Amazon and unless Amazon use it officially, it's incorrect.

Just like whoever came up KOA for the Oasis when it should really be KO3 (for the current model).

Wolfie...give it a rest, my sweet curmudgeon. Of course, only Amazon refers to KF7--who the hell supports that any longer, as an actual, kinda-living-breathing eBook format? Sure, if you have, what...an old Palm? Maybe you still use original-MOBI?

I mean, I get that you like to be as precise as possible, but you can hardly run around calling what is arguably KF7 as MOBI, because it's too bloody confusing. If you export a file, today, right now, from KP3 (Kindle Previewer 3) to sideload to your Paperwhite or Fire or whatever "Kindle" device or reader, what is that format? It's....wait for it--MOBI!

I mean, of all people, I'm your biggest supporter on this stuff and even I've given up the ghost--the woman who has to wrangle this very explanation/topic at least 5-10x daily, in my business. Hell, brother, if I've given up...

Yes, yes yes. Amazon wreaked some havoc with it, by refusing to name things in a sane manner, but for crying out loud, sweetie, stop fighting City Hall. It's nearly over--the original-MOBI (KF7) will, sometime soon (after all, it's been how many years now? 13? 14?) go the way of the Dodo. It shall cease to exist, except as footnotes in history and files that live on my devices, god help me. (N.b.: I don't know what/how Kovid will do. Presumably, orig-MOBI will continue to live on, in infamy, in Calibre, bless its heart).

Just...let it go. If you're going to fight the good fight of naming conventions, file formats, the world-as-multimedia, great, but the things you care about and talk about will be more noticeable if you give up being a bit...well, too pedantic (yes, yes, Grammar Police, I know, can't quantify it...) about things like KF7, MOBI, KF8, etc.

Just my $.02.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Y'know, I should have remembered not to inadvertently start this argument.

Many of us, me included, didn't go wild for multimedia, but let's be fair, ePUB3 does have a lot of other functionality. I am glad of that functionality, particularly for reading direction, etc. I would love it if ePUB3 would mature. Would be loverly, to coin a phrase. :-)

Hitch

But ePub 3 also has a lot of overly complicated code that could have been made much easier to code. There are things added in that don't need to be there and things done in a way that's more complicated then it needs to be.

The precursor to ePub was the MS LIT format. LIT is basically ePub 1.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by KevinH

You will see the Nav replacing the NCX

You do not want the NAV to replace the NCX. That loses backwards compatibility. You want/need both.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You do not want the NAV to replace the NCX. That loses backwards compatibility. You want/need both.

Yes, but Wolfie, it's easy enough to have both. That's...meh. That's not enough of a hurdle for me to fall at the first fence, bro.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

That--that would be beyond brilliant. I cannot tell you how incredibly awful it is, to see, for example, a 400-page treatise on Thermodynamics, or this or that, show up in my shop. I have to charge THE EARTH, for one thing--which is all well and good, but I don't feel great about it--to make an eBook that only half-assed works, particularly for KDP. It's frustrating as hell. I would luv luv luv to see full-tilt boogie MathML, etc. support across the board. I wish that would be the very next thing that would take focus, instead of multimedia. (SOOO frustrating!).

If you forgo MathML and use SVG, you'll have greater support.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yes, but Wolfie, it's easy enough to have both. That's...meh. That's not enough of a hurdle for me to fall at the first fence, bro.

Hitch

But which of the two mentioned Sigil plugins that's removing the NCX should not be doing it. It's a lot easier to remove it manually then to have to add it back.

I know for you it's trivial to make a new NCX. But why is it being removed in the first place?