eBook piracy, how common is it?

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by Stringer

And who would take care of the promoting, or do we completely trust to some big freeware portal and people reviews?

There are important services that publishers currently provide like editing and marketing. There's no reason that the folks that currently do that at a publishing company couldn't do that for an author as a consultant. They could work on a fee-for-service or a percentage basis. The author could retain rights to their own work. These days, the authors have to give up rights to their work to get these services. In the world of electronic publishing and distribution, this hardly seems necessary.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Stringer

And who would take care of the promoting, or do we completely trust to some big freeware portal and people reviews?

Well, now you've asked, the millions of file sharers that its offered to freely, the people who access Feedbooks and other portals where I'll make it available, here, and most importantly word of mouth. Again, I'm under no illusions about my work. My expectation is to make Zero money, but that's not what's important. And the so-called promotion you're talking of, well, it's all but non-existent for most writers under a publishing contract, especially first time authors. Word of mouth is way more important to me, having a single reader express their liking of my work is payment enough. If I was in this to make money, I'd be going the same boring old route of agent and publisher and waiting 18 months to see anything in print, and then being under contracts and all the rest of that palaver. Writing should be fun, not some bloody business decision. When I power up my word processor and put on my hat, I don't then put on a business suit and start worrying about sales figures. That's not why I write, it's not why I continue to write. And I would do this until I drop dead if nobody ever read a word. Luckily, I'm living in an age where at least one person might read my work.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but art, especially in a digital format, doesn't belong to the creator after he's finished the work and set it out there in the world. It becomes a cultural artefact, shared and given meaning by those who interact. In the case of a physical object, this then could be restricted, kept back - like a sculpture or a painting, or even a book, or the contents of a book. But the digital world means that any 'art' produced in that format then becomes part of the greater culture, a series of Zeros and Ones that are infinitely copyable. The actual illusion of control by the creator is just that, an illusion. It won't be long now before we see remixes of classic works, re-edited and posted. The best I, or any creator for that matter, can ask for is that those who receive our work do not mess with it too much, and if they do, that they keep our name on it and don't try to profit from the work. Still, that's no guarantee, and I'm under no illusions that whatever I produce won't have a life beyond my creation. That is the true nature of art. A domino run of influence from one to the next, copied, changed, to make something new.

The silly restrictions I was talking about was DRM, should have been clearer. Although I would have thought silly and restrictions together would have instantly pointed toward DRM as the subject of my attack.

With all due respect, that’s a load of shite – despite what you may choose to believe, the digital utopia you might prefer to live in, artists certainly should and do retain the rights to their creations – and could not survive otherwise. Using your logic, I, along with the remainder of the earth’s population, am/is no longer obligated to actually pay for anything that is available digitally – software – music – books – movies - digital content yet to be created, you name it.

The problem with this, where does it end? Now, more than ever, as more and more of our traditional media makes the transition to digital, rather than weaken copywrite laws, it would appear to me as though they need to be strengthened.

What do you propose in place of copywrite laws and DRM in some form or another?

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Well, now you've asked, the millions of file sharers that its offered to freely, the people who access Feedbooks and other portals where I'll make it available, here, and most importantly word of mouth. Again, I'm under no illusions about my work. My expectation is to make Zero money, but that's not what's important. And the so-called promotion you're talking of, well, it's all but non-existent for most writers under a publishing contract, especially first time authors. Word of mouth is way more important to me, having a single reader express their liking of my work is payment enough. If I was in this to make money, I'd be going the same boring old route of agent and publisher and waiting 18 months to see anything in print, and then being under contracts and all the rest of that palaver. Writing should be fun, not some bloody business decision. When I power up my word processor and put on my hat, I don't then put on a business suit and start worrying about sales figures. That's not why I write, it's not why I continue to write. And I would do this until I drop dead if nobody ever read a word. Luckily, I'm living in an age where at least one person might read my work.

And that’s fine, for you, but you seem to want to make that decision for other artists as well. You may CHOOSE to distribute your work freely or expect nothing in return, and that is commendable, but again, that’s your choice.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

With all due respect, that’s a load of shite – despite what you may choose to believe, the digital utopia you might prefer to live in, artists certainly do retain the writes to their creations – and could not survive otherwise. Using your logic, I, along with the remainder of the earth’s population, am/is no longer obligated to actually pay for anything that is available digitally – software – music – books – movies - digital content yet to be created, you name it.

The problem with this, where does it end? Now, more than ever, as more and more of our traditional media makes the transition to digital, rather than weaken copywrite laws, it would appear to me as though they need to be strengthened.

What do you propose in place of copywrite laws and DRM in some form or another?

Well I like that used the word 'shite', seems very English to me My proposal is very simple, we create as we have always created for the sheer pleasure of the creation and then release it and see what happens. I, myself, use Creative Commons copyright on what I produce - a share-alike, attribution, no-derivs, no profit license. Although I'm thinking of dropping the no-derivatives portion as I feel it is too restrictive.

We can't strengthen the original copyright, because it has already become meaningless to most people. Creative Commons is a good step forward, it seems to cover most bases. I'm quite happy with what they offer so far, a nice balance between creator and audience. And I was not arguing that artists don't retain their rights, I was merely stating that once a work is out there in a digital form, the artist can't control it. He can do all kinds of things to protect his rights, but once its in ones and zeros those protestations are as useful as shouting at a wall to fall down.

Oh and DRM is the most useless thing in the world. It doesn't work, never has worked, and will never work. There is no replacement for it, because it was never needed in the first place.

[astrodad]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

My proposal is very simple, we create as we have always created for the sheer pleasure of the creation and then release it and see what happens. I, myself, use Creative Commons copyright on what I produce - a share-alike, attribution, no-derivs, no profit license.

Just out of curiosity, do you not intend to make a profit on any of your work? Do you intend that we all just create for the sake of creating and abandon profit? Profit is the engine that moves the motivation to create. People can't create if they have to worry about buying food for their children. Or is it your fantasy that we live in a world where we all get what we want for free?

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Well, now you've asked, the millions of file sharers that its offered to freely, the people who access Feedbooks and other portals where I'll make it available, here, and most importantly word of mouth. Again, I'm under no illusions about my work. My expectation is to make Zero money, but that's not what's important. And the so-called promotion you're talking of, well, it's all but non-existent for most writers under a publishing contract, especially first time authors. Word of mouth is way more important to me, having a single reader express their liking of my work is payment enough. If I was in this to make money, I'd be going the same boring old route of agent and publisher and waiting 18 months to see anything in print, and then being under contracts and all the rest of that palaver. Writing should be fun, not some bloody business decision. When I power up my word processor and put on my hat, I don't then put on a business suit and start worrying about sales figures. That's not why I write, it's not why I continue to write. And I would do this until I drop dead if nobody ever read a word. Luckily, I'm living in an age where at least one person might read my work.

While I generally agree with your viewpoints, Moe, I have a couple of differences here. I greatly admire your altruism, but I think that most authors ARE in this to make money, not to simply have the pleasure of writing what they wish. It's this that causes the controversy in the first place.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Well I like that used the word 'shite', seems very English to me My proposal is very simple, we create as we have always created for the sheer pleasure of the creation and then release it and see what happens. I, myself, use Creative Commons copyright on what I produce - a share-alike, attribution, no-derivs, no profit license. Although I'm thinking of dropping the no-derivatives portion as I feel it is too restrictive.

We can't strengthen the original copyright, because it has already become meaningless to most people. Creative Commons is a good step forward, it seems to cover most bases. I'm quite happy with what they offer so far, a nice balance between creator and audience. And I was not arguing that artists don't retain their rights, I was merely stating that once a work is out there in a digital form, the artist can't control it. He can do all kinds of things to protect his rights, but once its in ones and zeros those protestations are as useful as shouting at a wall to fall down.

Oh and DRM is the most useless thing in the world. It doesn't work, never has worked, and will never work. There is no replacement for it, because it was never needed in the first place.

Why stop there, wouldn’t it be grand if my mechanic, rather than receive payment for his services, accepted a big ole hug? Or say, how about a nice thumbs up for the fella who just reshingled my roof. Or, at the end of the week, rather than collect a steady paycheck. wouldn’t it be great if your boss based your pay on what he/or she felt like doling out – or, even better, just gave you an enthusiastic pat on the back and exclaimed “job well done”?

Ok, and so but back here in the reality based community…

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

While I generally agree with your viewpoints, Moe, I have a couple of differences here. I greatly admire your altruism, but I think that most authors ARE in this to make money, not to simply have the pleasure of writing what they wish. It's this that causes the controversy in the first place.

I doubt most of them are in it solely for the money but I'm sure most would like to be able to make a good living doing what they love and are best at. So do I. If there are thousands of people that want to read their work, then it seems fair that they should be able to do that full time rather than squeeze it in on their precious off time.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by jplumey

Just out of curiosity, do you not intend to make a profit on any of your work? Do you intend that we all just create for the sake of creating and abandon profit? Profit is the engine that moves the motivation to create. People can't create if they have to worry about buying food for their children. Or is it your fantasy that we live in a world where we all get what we want for free?

Well I'd hope we're moving toward a world where profit is a secondary concern. I would love to make a living off writing, but that's not my plan at all. My plan is to write and to be read. I'm not even sure I'd offer a tip jar or any kind of donation in the end. Of course, things change. If I was offered a big fat publishing contract where I had the control, where I could still release my stuff for free without DRM or any of those restrictions, I wouldn't turn it down. And while I'm dreaming, I would also like Jennifer Jason Leigh to be my girlfriend

Ghandi once said that we should be the world we want to exist (paraphrasing). I'm just following that example. We're at a very exciting time in writing, a time of experimentation and taking risks and chances. If not now, when? I really don't want to belong the traditional publishing industry or be involved with their business. This isn't business to me, this is love, this is passion and joy and all the good stuff about being a human being, a human doing. If I have to give up any part of that experience to cow-tow to people with pie charts and graphs, then I'll stop doing it.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

Why stop there, wouldn’t it be grand if my mechanic, rather than receive payment for his services, accepted a big ole hug? Or say, how about a nice thumbs up for the fella who just reshingled my roof. Or, at the end of the week, rather than collect a steady paycheck. wouldn’t it be great if your boss based your pay on what he/or she felt like doling out – or, even better, just gave you an enthusiastic pat on the back and exclaimed “job well done”?

Ok, and so but back here in the reality based community…

You just gave me a great idea for a method of payment on my first novel. I'm going to make it Hugware. If you like the novel, then you have to hug someone. Wow, that's a grand idea! I will definitely do that once I release it.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Well I'd hope we're moving toward a world where profit is a secondary concern. I would love to make a living off writing, but that's not my plan at all. My plan is to write and to be read. I'm not even sure I'd offer a tip jar or any kind of donation in the end. Of course, things change. If I was offered a big fat publishing contract where I had the control, where I could still release my stuff for free without DRM or any of those restrictions, I wouldn't turn it down. And while I'm dreaming, I would also like Jennifer Jason Leigh to be my girlfriend

Ghandi once said that we should be the world we want to exist (paraphrasing). I'm just following that example. We're at a very exciting time in writing, a time of experimentation and taking risks and chances. If not now, when? I really don't want to belong the traditional publishing industry or be involved with their business. This isn't business to me, this is love, this is passion and joy and all the good stuff about being a human being, a human doing. If I have to give up any part of that experience to cow-tow to people with pie charts and graphs, then I'll stop doing it.

At one time, not too long ago, I sounded just like you – but then I purchased a (very modest) house and helped father a child…

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

You just gave me a great idea for a method of payment on my first novel. I'm going to make it Hugware. If you like the novel, then you have to hug someone. Wow, that's a grand idea! I will definitely do that once I release it.

LOL ok, but you can't call it Hugware. Hugware is a copyrighted term for cutesy graphics by PC Crafter. And they do charge money (not hugs) for them.

ETA: would that be Registered Trademark instead of copyright?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

At one time, not too long ago, I sounded just like you – but then I purchased a (very modest) house and helped father a child…

I'd take that as an insult, or at least a jibe, but then again you have to look after a child and pay a mortgage, whereas I'm childless and pay rent. So everything evens out

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

LOL ok, but you can't call it Hugware. Hugware is a copyrighted term for cutesy graphics by PC Crafter. And they do charge money (not hugs) for them.

Goddman! You can't even be altruistic without copyright getting in the way. Anybody have a copyright on Hug-left? It's like copyleft for hugs