eBook piracy, how common is it?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

@MoeJoe (and others) on theft, bits, and potentially infinite replication: I've been on both sides of this issue during my time in the software industry. I worked for many years at a startup company that produced high-end compilers and development tools for the embedded systems industry. My paycheck depended directly on the company being paid for its products.

I agree with everything you have to say (I'm a software developer too), but it still doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with theft. Whether you agree with copyright or not, copyright infringement has nothing to do with theft. Defending your copyrights and getting paid for your work are absolutely you're right. But it's not theft! Deliberately confusing the terms (or just parroting the industries deliberate confusion) doesn't help anything except to further spread mis-information. I think that's the point people are trying to make.

At this point in the game, I think the whole "copyright infringement is not theft" thing has been discussed so many times, that the only people still perpetuating that myth are doing it on purpose.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Well, no, actually. Many authors, perhaps even most, need the editing, promotion, and distribution services. Even allowing for how limited those have become, they provide some value; the publisher should get some of the income for having bothered with the slushpiles and deciding "this one is worth reading." (Anyone who thinks otherwise should head over to Smashwords and just read whatever's free; if you run out, you can visit fanfiction.net; there's a couple-million stories of, erm, variable quality. Almost half a million Harry Potter stories alone--who needs the next book?)

I dunno that I think those services are worth 85-93% of the list price (in fact, I'm pretty sure I think they're not), but they're worth *something.*

I'd fully agree if there wasn't so much dirge actually published that is badly written, in need of editing and is sold merely on the back of celebrity and name recognition. Their 'worth-reading' is usually what is most sellable, not by any stretch of the imagination what is 'best written' or even 'most compelling'.

By way of example, the Waterstones in Manchester UK. I searched for Ray Bradbury, undoubtedly one of the best writers of the last couple centuries. There were maybe five or six copies of his books. But I could pick up any of the Laurell K Hamilton drivel in stacks, or maybe a biography of Katie Price (a Tango-orange, implanted bimbo with the IQ of a potato).

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I'd fully agree if there wasn't so much dirge actually published that is badly written, in need of editing and is sold merely on the back of celebrity and name recognition. Their 'worth-reading' is usually what is most sellable, not by any stretch of the imagination what is 'best written' or even 'most compelling'.

I don't mean that what's published is the best that's available... just that the percentage of good stuff that's published, is much, much higher than the percentage of good stuff in the unpublished arena.

There are some terrific authors on fanfiction.net. Some who write stories that make people laugh, make people weep. There's some great content available as free PDFs on Lulu.com. But you have to wade through a lot of schlock to find it.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I agree, but on the other hand don't you feel somewhat ripped off when only 7-15% of your money goes to the actual author? Wouldn't it be great if I, or you, or any reader could give the full amount to the writer? That's another consequence of the generation we live in, they're becoming less and less tolerant of the big companies that manufacture our culture. They want a way to be directly involved with the creator. They want the money they give to go to the author, not the go-betweens.

That's why I recommended that content creators/owners (think publishers in the eBook world) slice out a level of distribution. That change alone wipes out a 2x markup (in most cases), and changes the slice going to the author from 7-15% to more like 18-30%. And when I consider the services provided by the folks between author and me, it doesn't seem unreasonable to pay them 2/3 of the money. If eBook sales-volume went up drastically, I could see the cut that goes to the retailer going down quite a bit, and the publisher's cut going down modestly (in percentage terms, of course) -- that would leave a larger percentage for the authors.

Don't forget that slush-pile diving is both expensive (in time) and aesthetically painful for the diver. The typical submission leaves you wanting to gouge your eyes out with a spork! Editorial judgement, branding, publicity, copy-edits, proof-edits, type-setting and design, artwork... And let's not forget financial risk! The publisher fronts the advance, but the author need not pay it back if actual sales don't cover it.

I don't resent publishers who provide real services to both authors and readers. Nor do I resent retailers who make it easy for me to find good product. Those folks all add value. I'm not even sure I resent the distributors (at least in the paper world). After all, they save publishers from having to deal with each individual bookstore in the world (and bookstores from having to deal directly with every publisher) -- although I often think their markup is much larger than the value of that simplification.

In the world of bits, however, it's not clear that the distributors add any value at all. And I certainly resent paying when there's no value added.

Xenophon

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I agree, but on the other hand don't you feel somewhat ripped off when only 7-15% of your money goes to the actual author? Wouldn't it be great if I, or you, or any reader could give the full amount to the writer? That's another consequence of the generation we live in, they're becoming less and less tolerant of the big companies that manufacture our culture. They want a way to be directly involved with the creator. They want the money they give to go to the author, not the go-betweens.

If only there were some new communications path that would enable authors to sell directly to their customers and cut out the bloated middle man. Oh wait!

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I don't mean that what's published is the best that's available... just that the percentage of good stuff that's published, is much, much higher than the percentage of good stuff in the unpublished arena.

There are some terrific authors on fanfiction.net. Some who write stories that make people laugh, make people weep. There's some great content available as free PDFs on Lulu.com. But you have to wade through a lot of schlock to find it.

I must admit I've never read a piece of fan fiction in my life, so I wouldn't know. I think though, depending on taste, you'd be wearing the same waders in most bookstores.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

I don't mean that what's published is the best that's available... just that the percentage of good stuff that's published, is much, much higher than the percentage of good stuff in the unpublished arena.

There are some terrific authors on fanfiction.net. Some who write stories that make people laugh, make people weep. There's some great content available as free PDFs on Lulu.com. But you have to wade through a lot of schlock to find it.

Sounds like a business opportunity for someone. A new blog called schlock wader. Providing a list of good fan-fic, and other free e-books. Have to be advertising driven, though....

[Lanik42]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

We can intellectualize and rationalize downloading ebooks (or any other form of electronic media) for free until the cows grow weary and make their way home, but the bottom line is, unless the author or publisher is giving it away at no charge, doing so is theft (unless, as others have already indicated, one is scanning previously purchased copies).

We've covered that before actually...

If you want the dictionary definition, it is:

the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

So no, if you download a book for personal use, you are not taking and carrying away someone else's stuff (it's still there) and you're not selling it.... it's not theft. Copyright infringement depending on location and circumstances perhaps, something of that sort... but it is not theft.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Well, no, actually. Many authors, perhaps even most, need the editing, promotion, and distribution services.

I would agree with editing. As for promotion and distribution, not so much anymore. Even for those that can't promote/distribute themselves over the internet, they should be able to find someone who can do it for a lot cheaper than the big publishing companies.

I dunno that I think those services are worth 85-93% of the list price

That's the real tragedy in all of this. The copyright argument always ends up in a fight between the consumers and the copyright holders (authors). The sad part is that both of them are being screwed by the publishers. You don't really hear people attack it from that point of view as much though, which is probably exactly what the publishers want. They'll happily let consumers and authors go at each other, and quietly rake in the cash from both sides.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

That's why I recommended that content creators/owners (think publishers in the eBook world) slice out a level of distribution. That change alone wipes out a 2x markup (in most cases), and changes the slice going to the author from 7-15% to more like 18-30%. And when I consider the services provided by the folks between author and me, it doesn't seem unreasonable to pay them 2/3 of the money. If eBook sales-volume went up drastically, I could see the cut that goes to the retailer going down quite a bit, and the publisher's cut going down modestly (in percentage terms, of course) -- that would leave a larger percentage for the authors.

Don't forget that slush-pile diving is both expensive (in time) and aesthetically painful for the diver. The typical submission leaves you wanting to gouge your eyes out with a spork! Editorial judgement, branding, publicity, copy-edits, proof-edits, type-setting and design, artwork... And let's not forget financial risk! The publisher fronts the advance, but the author need not pay it back if actual sales don't cover it.

I don't resent publishers who provide real services to both authors and readers. Nor do I resent retailers who make it easy for me to find good product. Those folks all add value. I'm not even sure I resent the distributors (at least in the paper world). After all, they save publishers from having to deal with each individual bookstore in the world (and bookstores from having to deal directly with every publisher) -- although I often think their markup is much larger than the value of that simplification.

In the world of bits, however, it's not clear that the distributors add any value at all. And I certainly resent paying when there's no value added.

Xenophon

See, that's my beef with the whole industry. Who gets to decide what is trash and what is treasure? What are their qualifications to do this, are they all marketing gurus, are they all ex-writers, or are a lot of them in the positions because of cronyism and nepotism? Why are they the ones deciding instead of the public at large? They are gatekeepers, another level between the writer and the reader that is rapidly becoming pointless.

If I want to write a detective novel about a lesbian octopus bringing up a family of crabs (Not that I do) I don't need somebody telling me its worthwhile or not. And by worthwhile we all know that means 'marketable' or even 'profitable'. I am now free to write The Big Tentacle and put it out there, suckers and all for anybody to read, and maybe if they like it, donate.

[Good Old Neon]

Originally Posted by Lanik42

We've covered that before actually...

If you want the dictionary definition, it is:


So no, if you download a book for personal use, you are not taking and carrying away someone else's stuff (it's still there) and you're not selling it.... it's not theft. Copyright infringement depending on location and circumstances perhaps, something of that sort... but it is not theft.

It sounds to me like we’re getting hung up on a.) semantics, and b.) the fact that the words stealing and theft were coined and defined before folks could even conceive of electronic distribution, file sharing, etc. I don’t care if we call it Shirley, the bottom-line is, you’re taking, for free, something that has a real monetary value.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Good Old Neon

It sounds to me like we’re getting hung up on a.) semantics, and b.) the fact that the words stealing and theft were coined and defined before folks could even conceive of electronic distribution, file sharing, etc. I don’t care if we call it Shirley, the bottom-line is, you’re taking, for free, something that has a real monetary value.

Like the book you loan from a friend? Or when you sing Happy Birthday to a child without written consent from the copyright owner? Or you listen to a song on the radio and don't purchase, immediately, the track from Itunes?

[Lanik42]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

If only there were some new communications path that would enable authors to sell directly to their customers and cut out the bloated middle man. Oh wait!

I think it would be great to be able to go to my favorite author's site, and pay them for the book I download. Sure, editing and all that is needed... but why should that be a percentage? Author's can pay a fee to have their works edited and such, then all income goes directly to them. Especially better-known authors. I can understand an up-and-coming author wanting or needing the investment of resources and marketing when starting out, but there comes a point at which I imagine it would become more profitable to sell directly, at least on the ebook side.

[Stringer]

Originally Posted by Lanik42

We've covered that before actually...

If you want the dictionary definition, it is:

Sequence Publishing's definition goes like this:

The act of taking something from someone unlawfully.

You are taking away their right to sell the stuff they have produced by using the product without paying it.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

See, that's my beef with the whole industry. Who gets to decide what is trash and what is treasure? What are their qualifications to do this, are they all marketing gurus, are they all ex-writers, or are a lot of them in the positions because of cronyism and nepotism? Why are they the ones deciding instead of the public at large? They are gatekeepers, another level between the writer and the reader that is rapidly becoming pointless.

Yep. In the current system the gatekeeper is the one that makes all of the money, and you can bet that they'll fight very hard to keep that gate exactly where it is. In the long term, getting rid of them would be better for people on both sides of the gate (consumers and authors), but they're not going to go away easily.