Seriously thoughtful The NEW Covid Vaccination Poll

[haertig]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

If the unvaccinated didn't want to either be tested or get vaccinated, then they could be required to wear a mask to enter certain places. That is not a huge hardship for most people.

How would you enforce that? Require everybody to carry papers around with them proving that they are vaccinated (thus not needing a mask), and show those papers to anybody who asks? Or simply require everybody to wear a mask into eternity to do away with the papers?

Seriously, how would you enforce your requirement?

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by haertig

How would you enforce that? Require everybody to carry papers around with them proving that they are vaccinated (thus not needing a mask), and show those papers to anybody who asks? Or simply require everybody to wear a mask into eternity to do away with the papers?

Seriously, how would you enforce your requirement?

Poppea's post indicated that wherever he/she lives testing is being done, so that's one step. I heard on the news that New York has an app people can use that shows they're vaccinated. Obviously there would need to be some other proof of vaccine option (such as papers) for people who don't have a smartphone or tablet.

Most people already carry around a driver's license or other ID which is used for admittance to some places (like a bar that has an age requirement) - what's wrong with having another official paper to carry around?

[astrangerhere]

Originally Posted by haertig

Or maybe we should just shoot them. If you're going to coerce, why not do it with vigor?

I assume that your logic here is that if they don't want to get the vaccine, then it is their choice to take that risk. In the case of the aforementioned senior population, that is a very real risk of death.

However, they are putting others at risk, and we have had no problems in this country forcing people to do things for the general public safety. Examples:

• You can choose not to wear a seatbelt, but you're going to get at least a $150 ticket every time you are caught. Why? Because accidents where seatbelts are not worn are so much more lethal and can lead to cascading events.
  
• You can choose to speed, but you're going to get a ticket and face possible criminal penalties because your actions are so dangerous to others.
  
• Children are required to be vaccinated before they will be admitted into public school. Why? So they don't bring dangerous and preventable diseases into the school population. Don't like it? Enjoy paying for private school.

This is a public safety issue. Grandma doesn't want to get her shot? Fine, but her assisted living facility should have the right to kick her out to protect the rest of their elderly residents from her.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

Most people already carry around a driver's license or other ID which is used for admittance to some places (like a bar that has an age requirement) - what's wrong with having another official paper to carry around?

Who do you show these papers to? Does the grocery store need to hire security guards for each entrance? Do you think it is ethical and morally right to keep someone out of, say, a grocery store unless they are vaccinated? They cannot buy food to eat unless they agree to your mandated beliefs? That's quite the coercion.

And why does it even matter? The vaccinated are not affected by the unvaccinated. The vaccinated are protected - it matters not what the unvaccinated do around them. But still, you want to force the unvaccinated to be vaccinated. Why? And the extremes you are evidently willing to go to ... are they justified?

[Deskisamess]

The courts are divided on the legality of a retail store asking for proof of vaccination. Any store that starts asking for proof won't get my business.

I can see it for travel from one country to another. My son recently went to Cancun on vacation...they had to be tested before they could fly back into the US. I'm not sure if they had to show proof of vaccination.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by haertig

Who do you show these papers to? Does the grocery store need to hire security guards for each entrance? Do you think it is ethical and morally right to keep someone out of, say, a grocery store unless they are vaccinated? They cannot buy food to eat unless they agree to your mandated beliefs? That's quite the coercion.

And why does it even matter? The vaccinated are not affected by the unvaccinated. The vaccinated are protected - it matters not what the unvaccinated do around them. But still, you want to force the unvaccinated to be vaccinated. Why? And the extremes you are evidently willing to go to ... are they justified?

No, they don't have to be prevented from buying groceries. If they aren't vaccinated, they would just have to wear a mask. Why is that so terrible?

[haertig]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

This is a public safety issue. Grandma doesn't want to get her shot? Fine, but her assisted living facility should have the right to kick her out to protect the rest of their elderly residents from her.

Yes, being a private facility, I agree that they have a right to choose their clients. However, they do not have a right to your medical records, your "papers". That is very specifically illegal in the USA due to HIPAA laws. Fines and repercussions for flouting HIPAA are huge, which is why hospitals and such go so far out of their way to follow that law.

But what you're saying is that the vaccine you want to force upon everyone doesn't work, because unvaccinated Grandma is going to affect other vaccinated residents. So what is the rationale to force something that admittedly doesn't work onto everyone?

Personally, I disagree with the above premise that the vaccine does not work. The vaccine does work. I am simply countering your argument that in order to protect the vaccinated, you need to force vaccination on the unvaccinated. That just doesn't make sense.

[Deskisamess]

My MIL is in a nursing home. She moved there March 2, 2020, just 2 weeks before the facility was out on lock down. No one there, residents or staff, were forced to get the vaccine. I believe the percentage of residents who got it is in the neighborhood of 80%+, not sure of the staff. I believe it was in the 60% range.

I think, but am not positive, because the approval of the vaccines is under "emergency use" and they don't have "full" approval, employers can't make them mandatory. One of my BIL's is a nurse, and the flu vaccine is mandatory where he works at a VA Clinic. He assumes the covid vaccines will eventually be mandatory for health care workers. He did get his in the first wave of medical workers, as did his wife, who teaches in a private school.

There are religious exemptions for students who don't get the normal childhood vaccines. I know several families who are anti-vaccers, and their kids go to private and public schools.

I know the schools my kids went to, a mix of private and public, never fussed about my daughter's missing pertussis/whooping cough vaccines. She reacted badly to her first DPT, so only got the DT in the rest of the shots.

[Barbara1955]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

I assume that your logic here is that if they don't want to get the vaccine, then it is their choice to take that risk. In the case of the aforementioned senior population, that is a very real risk of death.

However, they are putting others at risk, and we have had no problems in this country forcing people to do things for the general public safety. Examples:

• You can choose not to wear a seatbelt, but you're going to get at least a $150 ticket every time you are caught. Why? Because accidents where seatbelts are not worn are so much more lethal and can lead to cascading events.
  
• You can choose to speed, but you're going to get a ticket and face possible criminal penalties because your actions are so dangerous to others.
  
• Children are required to be vaccinated before they will be admitted into public school. Why? So they don't bring dangerous and preventable diseases into the school population. Don't like it? Enjoy paying for private school.

This is a public safety issue. Grandma doesn't want to get her shot? Fine, but her assisted living facility should have the right to kick her out to protect the rest of their elderly residents from her.

It was NOT the Unvaccinated people living in NH that cause the people in NH to get Covid... It WAS the Unvaccinated Visitors that brought Covid in! Just get Your FACTS Straight! STOP Lying!

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

My MIL is in a nursing home. She moved there March 2, 2020, just 2 weeks before the facility was out on lock down. No one there, residents or staff, were forced to get the vaccine. I believe the percentage of residents who got it is in the neighborhood of 80%+, not sure of the staff. I believe it was in the 60% range.

My mom was in a privately owned elderly care facility. Moved there during the pandemic, during lockdown - no visitors. Despite best efforts, covid made it in. I believe about 6 died out of 52 residents. You can't say that was just covid, as people die in this facility all the time. But covid no doubt played a big role. Despite this, when the vaccines came out, nobody - resident or staff - was forced to get it. A very high percentage did choose to get the vaccine, probably similar to the numbers you stated above. This is the way it should be. Personal choice. No "kicking people out" as some here want.

[Deskisamess]

Originally Posted by Barbara1955

It was NOT the Unvaccinated people living in NH that cause the people in NH to get Covid... It WAS the Unvaccinated Visitors that brought Covid in! Just get Your FACTS Straight! STOP Lying!

You can't say that with 100% certainty. Residents and employees came and went, had visitors, residents ate in communal dining rooms, had activities in groups, and moved around the buildings at will, before covid. So sure, visitors probably brought some covid in, but residents brought it in and spread it to other residents as well, just like employees brought it in and spread it.

Once it was in the nursing home, it kept spreading, even when NO visitors were permitted.

[astrangerhere]

Originally Posted by Barbara1955

It was NOT the Unvaccinated people living in NH that cause the people in NH to get Covid... It WAS the Unvaccinated Visitors that brought Covid in! Just get Your FACTS Straight! STOP Lying!

I'm very confused at this particular response as I was only giving examples. I am not sure how I could be lying.

For what it's worth, though, every state that had Covid had it "brought in" from somewhere as the virus was not native to the US.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

I assume that your logic here is that if they don't want to get the vaccine, then it is their choice to take that risk. In the case of the aforementioned senior population, that is a very real risk of death.

However, they are putting others at risk, and we have had no problems in this country forcing people to do things for the general public safety. Examples:

• You can choose not to wear a seatbelt, but you're going to get at least a $150 ticket every time you are caught. Why? Because accidents where seatbelts are not worn are so much more lethal and can lead to cascading events.
  
• You can choose to speed, but you're going to get a ticket and face possible criminal penalties because your actions are so dangerous to others.
  
• Children are required to be vaccinated before they will be admitted into public school. Why? So they don't bring dangerous and preventable diseases into the school population. Don't like it? Enjoy paying for private school.

This is a public safety issue. Grandma doesn't want to get her shot? Fine, but her assisted living facility should have the right to kick her out to protect the rest of their elderly residents from her.

Pardon me, but how is grandma a threat for the other elderly residents? Where is she going to get COVID in the first place? Furthermore if the other residents have gotten the vaccine, their risk has dropped substantially for COVD.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

I'm very confused at this particular response as I was only giving examples. I am not sure how I could be lying.

For what it's worth, though, every state that had Covid had it "brought in" from somewhere as the virus was not native to the US.

And if we were able to keep our borders as tight as Australia, we would have a lot fewer deaths.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

However, they are putting others at risk...

Specifically, HOW are they putting others at risk?