Can you read complete books on an LCD screens?

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

Reflected light is shining directly into your eyes.

But this is not the light source - and therein lies the big difference.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

But this is not the light source - and therein lies the big difference.

You have never provided any evidence of that.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

You have never provided any evidence of that.

Well then look into a light source - enjoy it!

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Well then look into a light source - enjoy it!

Expect to get called on it when you just make something up.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

To my eyes, an LCD screen doesn't appear solid. The text does but the white background doesn't. It's hard to describe. It's sort of like the text is floating in front of a light. E-ink does appear solid as long as there is some ambient light. The only time e-ink doesn't appear solid to me is if I use it in a dark room with the ereader's light on.

I tried showing this to a family member who happily reads on LCD - I held my e-ink device next to her tablet but she didn't see a difference.

Originally Posted by ApK

Have you tried adjusting the colors/color temperature of the background and text? Certain color combinations are used for intentional 3D effect, so I can imagine that more subtle color differences could have a subtle effect.

ApK

No LCD device (computer monitor, tablet, or phone) I've used for work, reading, shopping, etc. ever looks truly solid to me.

I figure I don't get eyestrain from my work computer because I don't stare at it continuously, but go back and forth with other activities. Also it may make a difference that I use the computer with glasses on, at arm's length. My close-up vision is good so I normally read books without my glasses and the material is closer to my eyes (maybe 11 - 12 inches).

Unfortunately the apps for reading library books (my primary reading material) have very limited color adjustments and the font weight is limited to regular or extra-bold, nothing in between.

Darker colors do appear more solid than light colors on LCD. However, I find light text on a dark background difficult to read whether on LCD, e-ink or paper.

None of this is intended as an argument against what you said - just trying to describe my experience.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Well then look into a light source - enjoy it!

To be fair, even on an LCD device, no one is actually looking directly at the light-source, either. The "staring into a lightbulb" analogy is not very accurate.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

To be fair, even on an LCD device, no one is actually looking directly at the light-source, either. The "staring into a lightbulb" analogy is not very accurate.

On an LCD device, the light is directed through the color filters from behind - so you are looking directly into the light source.
With an illuminated EInk, the light is cast from the front onto the module and you see as you see everything normally - reflected.
And it is a difference whether you look into the light source or look at something illuminated (not mirrored).

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

On an LCD device, the light is directed through the color filters from behind - so you are looking directly into the light source.
With an illuminated EInk, the light is cast from the front onto the module and you see as you see everything normally - reflected.
And it is a difference whether you look into the light source or look at something illuminated (not mirrored).

I think you might be oversimplifying just a bit. I've disassembled quite a few LCD devices in my day, and most didn't have lights directly behind the viewing portion of the screen. Especially with some of the smaller screens. The old-style fluorescent tubes were typically at the bottom and/or top of laptop screens and were shined up and/or down. The bulb itself was not ever being looked at. Same for the more modern edge-lit led lcd screens.

I'm not arguing that the different technologies don't affect different people differently, but clinging to the notion that people are looking directly at the light source with lcd devices is neither accurate, nor helpful. Yes, the screen on an lcd device is glowing; from lights that are located behind (or at the edges of) the screen. But people aren't looking directly at the source of that glow. Just like people aren't looking directly at the sources of light that make an Eink screen more visible.

They're different, for sure. Just not "staring at a lightbulb" vs "staring at what a lightbulb is illuminating" different.

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

On an LCD device, the light is directed through the color filters from behind - so you are looking directly into the light source.
With an illuminated EInk, the light is cast from the front onto the module and you see as you see everything normally - reflected.
And it is a difference whether you look into the light source or look at something illuminated (not mirrored).

You keep ignoring
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=46
which shows that in addition to the color filters, the light passes through two polarizing filters and the liquid crystal itself, which modifies the polarization.

You look more directly into the e-ink frontlight than the LCD backlight.

I strongly prefer reading on e-ink. I am not claiming there is no difference between reading on LCD and reading on e-ink. But I do insist that superstition is not a valid source of explanation.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think you might be oversimplifying just a bit. I've disassembled quite a few LCD devices in my day, and most didn't have lights directly behind the viewing portion of the screen. Especially with some of the smaller screens. The old-style fluorescent tubes were typically at the bottom and/or top of laptop screens and were shined up and/or down. The bulb itself was not being ever being looked at. Same for the more modern edge-lit led screens.

I'm not arguing that the different technologies don't affect different people differently, but clinging to the notion that people are looking directly at the light source with lcd devices is neither accurate, nor helpful. Yes, the screen on an lcd device is glowing; from lights that are located behind (or at the edges of) the screen. But people aren't looking directly at the source of that glow. Just like people aren't looking directly at the sources of light that make an Eink screen more visible.

They're different, for sure. Just not "staring at a lightbulb" vs "staring at what a lightbulb is illuminating" different.

The light is never directed backwards onto a white surface and reflected by it, but always forwards directly through the color filters - so at 2 you are looking into the light source.
Without this, you see nothing - neither during the day nor at night.
With EInk, ambient light is advantageous, but I don't need any internal lighting, neither during the day nor at night.
When you look at a backlit surface, you always look into the light source

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

The light is never directed backwards onto a white surface and reflected by it, but always forwards directly through the color filters - so at 2 you are looking into the light source.

Got it. I'll continue with some of the others who have moved past illogical "looking into the light source" analogies then. Have a nice day.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

To my eyes, an LCD screen doesn't appear solid. The text does but the white background doesn't. It's hard to describe. It's sort of like the text is floating in front of a light. E-ink does appear solid as long as there is some ambient light. The only time e-ink doesn't appear solid to me is if I use it in a dark room with the ereader's light on.

I tried showing this to a family member who happily reads on LCD - I held my e-ink device next to her tablet but she didn't see a difference.

This got me wondering about those pictures that have 3-D optical illusions in them. Stereograms, I think they were called? Anyway. Invariably, people looking at them could always be lumped into three groups: Those who could see the optical illusion right away, those who never could see it, and those who could work at it for a while and eventually see it.

I was always in the last group. I'm curious what group those who describe the background of an LCD screen as not appearing solid might be in.

I'm obviously ignoring the 4th group of people who tended to lie about being able to see the optical illusion and then walked away.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

This got me wondering about those pictures that have 3-D optical illusions in them. Stereograms, I think they were called? Anyway. Invariably, people looking at them could always be lumped into three groups: Those who could see the optical illusion right away, those who never could see it, and those who could work at it for a while and eventually see it.

I was always in the last group. I'm curious what group those who describe the background of an LCD screen as not appearing solid might be in.

I'm obviously ignoring the 4th group of people who tended to lie about being able to see the optical illusion and then walked away.

I have a vague memory of the pictures you're talking about but honestly can't remember if I was able to see the illusion or not! Though I'm thinking not.

EDIT: found this article that says people with convergence issues who have difficulty merging two images into one have trouble with stereograms. I do have this difficulty - my eyes only work together properly if I am looking straight ahead. Otherwise I tend to default to my better eye and ignore the image from the other eye. So maybe I would be able to see the illusion if I looked at it from exactly the right angle....

http://www.math.brown.edu/tbanchof/Y...wing.html#cant

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I have a vague memory of the pictures you're talking about but honestly can't remember if I was able to see the illusion or not! Though I'm thinking not.

EDIT: found this article that says people with convergence issues who have difficulty merging two images into one have trouble with stereograms. I do have this difficulty - my eyes only work together properly if I am looking straight ahead. Otherwise I tend to default to my better eye and ignore the image from the other eye. So maybe I would be able to see the illusion if I looked at it from exactly the right angle....

http://www.math.brown.edu/tbanchof/Y...wing.html#cant

Wow! It took me a really long time to be able to see it, but I finally did. Don't know if it's at all relevant to the situation or not, though. I was sort of hoping that you would have been one of those who sees them right away.

Related to complaints of glare when trying to read on LCD, focusing on your own reflection in the glass covering one of those stereogram images is one of the techniques mentioned to help people see them.

Not sure what the science is behind those who seem to be able to easily "tune out" glare when looking at a screen, but I'm certainly one of them. Darker backgrounds definitely make it more difficult for me to tune them out than lighter ones, though. I code (and do general computer work) with a dark background and light text, but I can't read a book for any length of time with a dark background/light text.

[ApK]

Looking at my reflection in a glass frame over a stereogram was how I learned to see them. Once I knew how "focusing past the image" felt, I could then do it without the glass.
I'm not sure whether or not those things are related to the effect I was thinking of, which I just learned is called Chromostereopsis.