Ethics and legalities of format shifting

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

I think what ottischwenk has written is that he purposely only obtains ebooks with strong DRM because someone got possession of one of his devices and and published the books on it to the internet.

yes it is

In several posts I believe he has also discussed device password locks which other posters conflated with DRM, then he and the other posters talked past each other for multiple rounds.

No, show that the removal of DRM violates existing laws, which is not necessary with the appropriate device, with which you can display both Adobe and Amazon DRM books.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, show that the removal of DRM violates existing laws, which is not necessary with the appropriate device, with which you can display both Adobe and Amazon DRM books.

Everyone knows that removing the DRM is technically illegal. That's not news to anyone here. And yes, it is necessary, if you don't want to depend on foreign businesses to keep your books accessible to you. Personally I want to be responsible for my books myself and make my backups myself. And I don't care whether it's forbidden by law or not.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

And yes, it is necessary, if you don't want to depend on foreign businesses to keep your books accessible to you.

You are just as dependent on it with your devices.

Personally I want to be responsible for my books myself and make my backups myself.

Nothing prevents you from doing this - files with DRM can also be backed up.

And I don't care whether it's forbidden by law or not.

You just have to have bought several licenses to use them on your devices.
Did you?
If not, then maybe you can reflect my thoughts on your attitudes based on my contributions here.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

You are just as dependent on it with your devices.

Not at all. You're dependent on Amazon and Adobe keeping their servers running and your account open every time you buy a new device. I just load my books to my new device from Calibre and I don't even need an internet connection for this, let alone someone else's server.

Nothing prevents you from doing this - files with DRM can also be backed up.

No they cannot. If Adobe and Amazon go out of business or close my account, then I'd be unable to read my books on anything else than my current device.

You just have to have bought several licenses to use them on your devices.
Did you?
If not, then maybe you can reflect my thoughts on your attitudes based on my contributions here.

Of course not. It's your unique interpretation that a person must buy more than one license per book for their personal use or else they're a thief. No one else has interpreted the law this way. And nowhere in the law it's said that removing the DRM = theft. It's your imagination only. And I don't care what you imagine to be true.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Not at all. You're dependent on Amazon and Adobe keeping their servers running and your account open every time you buy a new device.

Wrong - with a full backup of the relevant applications, the account login data is also transferred - a new registration of the app is not necessary neither with Amazon, nor with Onleihe, nor in Libby, nor in the Pocketbook app, nor ...
I can read the all DRM files without any (initial) internet connection

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Wrong - with a full backup of the relevant applications, the account login data is also transferred - a new registration of the app is not necessary neither with Amazon, nor with Onleihe, nor in Libby, nor in the Pocketbook app, nor ...
I can read the all DRM files without any (initial) internet connection

Good for you. Someday those apps will stop working, the backups will be incompatible with your new device and that's it. I can read my books on anything capable of displaying text. The format doesn't matter.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Good for you. Someday those apps will stop working, the backups will be incompatible with your new device and that's it.

Something like this has never happened to me in my really long years of experience.
Of course I don't know what you're up to.

I can read my books on anything capable of displaying text. The format doesn't matter.

Well, through a criminal breach of the law

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Well, through a criminal breach of the law

No one cares. Besides you, of course.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Something like this has never happened to me in my really long years of experience.
Of course I don't know what you're up to.Well, through a criminal breach of the law

My stars, he has never managed to purchase ebooks from a company that then decides to exit the ebook business. And then claims to have "really long years of experience".

As for criminal breach of the law? In Canada, the copyright act covers both civil and criminal copyright infringement. The phrase "infringement that involves sale or rental of copyrighted materials" is what triggers the criminal end. Since you have felt free to call many of the posters on MobileRead criminals, it would appear that you must supply evidence that they are selling or renting copyright materials to support your claims. Either that or admit to be a criminal engaging in defamatory libel as per the Canadian Criminal Code section 298 (1). A quick search finds similar laws throughout most of the world.

cf.

Defamation (üble Nachrede, Art. 111): Accusing someone of a disreputable characteristic or disposition, dishonourable behaviour or of a behaviour offensive to good morals that may denigrate that person or bring him/her into disrepute in the eyes of the public. The penalty is six months in prison or a fine of 360 times the daily rate. For defamation committed through print, broadcasting “or by any other means by which the defamatory content is made accessible to a wider public”, the possible penalty is up to one year in prison and a fine of up to 760 times the daily rate.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Since you have felt free to call many of the posters on MobileRead criminals, ......

It is very easy to prove to the truth that anyone who removes DRM to read a file on an unauthorized device is suppressing payment for an additional license required.
And embezzlement is a criminal act.

Thus "defamation" is not applicable.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

It is very easy to prove to the truth that anyone who removes DRM to read a file on an unauthorized device is suppressing payment for an additional license required.
And embezzlement is a criminal act.

Thus "defamation" is not applicable.

Hmm why has no one who has removed the DRM for personal use been on trial for embezzlement or stealing, then? After all, it's a widespread practice. Thousands of people do it. It's not a secret.

[pazos]

What a fun ride

Now remember that this whole thread started because ottischwenk tried to convince everyone that android e-ink devices were the best for everyone, because you can login with various providers.

The "strong" antiDeDRM arguments came later, as people explained him how they manage to overcome certain limitations on their favorite e-ink readers.

The truth is that ottischwenk is moving goals trying to keep his argument but he never cared about DRM at all.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...postcount=1169

Google can enlight us with the words "ottischwenk drm" about his own self-dubbed "criminal acts"

[Ripplinger]

This thread started out amusing to read, but now it's just and getting too painful to read anymore.

I have to ask ottischwenk though, how exactly did you know that a book you had on your stolen reader appeared on a pirate site, and it was that exact copy from your reader? Did law enforcement come knocking on your door and accuse you of file sharing?

For myself, I buy all my books mostly through Amazon lately, only through my PC to keep a catalog of purchases, strip DRM and sideload to my reader. I'm the only one in my family/friends that uses an ereader, so there's no more passing along of books anymore, only I read the ebooks. When I read paperbacks though, those would get passed around quite a lot and the author would miss out on those sales. Strictly in accordance with law, but the author really lost out, just as they lost out on used book sales. And I'm perfectly content if ottischwenk wants to call me a thief because I'm protecting my purchases from stores closing and devices breaking.

But they've stated such contradictions along the way, license is per person, then per device, then per account, they can pass their device to let others read and that's not against the law... their arguments have completely lost all credibility.

[MarjaE]

Is it different if I'm stripping DRM to read using different software on an authorized device?

e.g. I buy a reference book from Amazon, I want to search it on my Mac, but blinking cursors give me migraines, so I can't search in the Kindle for Mac app.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You are both wrong. Doing so is illegal.

When you sign up with Kobo, you agree to their terms and conditions. Break those conditions and your license to read the book is no longer valid.
[deleted]
I asked Kobo about this back in 2012.

I called Amazon's Kindle support a couple of times, most recently about 3 years ago, to ask this very question. I'm very careful with my Amazon account and I don't want to get in trouble with them so I call them when I find myself doing something questionable. Unlike you I didn't keep a transcript. Mine was a voice call to Kindle support in the USA.

I asked if it was okay to buy a spare Kindle to use to loan books to my neighbors in my retirement home. Both times I was told by Kindle support that Amazon has no objection and that they're aware that a lot of people do this.

I don't know how Amazon feels about this in other countries or how other sellers feel about it but here in the USA at least it's okay.

I'm pretty sure it is actually a violation of their TOS but often those terms are there in case they're needed, not for everyday use. My guess is that this is an example of that. Probably if I bought a million Kindles and started sending them out to everyone in the state with lots of books on them I'd find myself in court.

Barry