Ethics and legalities of format shifting

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

I have no problems because I read all the books with the licenses of the corresponding accounts.

Format changes are unnecessary work and require the presence of a computer while I can get and read my books from wherever - without breaking a single law.

And if a device should be stolen from me, the thief can read all the books, but nothing else can do with it.

I don't have to worry about the return of libraries either - DRM does that for me.

DRM gives me only advantages - not a single limitation.

And since all of my devices are configured in this way, it doesn't matter much if a device should fail (apart from the device costs), I have my files in my cloud.

No one has argued with that. What we argue with are your ridiculous labeling of everyone who breaks the exact letter of the law as a thief, and your unfounded claims of independence, which are simply false.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Yes, devices failed for me too, but I always had the right replacement ready to go.

Yes, and if the bookseller is no longer in business when you replace your device, and the DRM servers are shut down, then you won't be able to read your books.

[Quoth]

Also if you reset your Kindle and Amazon's servers are down, or you have no internet, or Amazon orphans that model or gets out of ebooks, then ebooks with DRM are unreadable.

Also if you do too many returns or otherwise annoy Amazon, they can disable your account. If then the Kindle is factory reset or broken or lost then with DRM you have lost access to the books.

The same applies to Adobe ADE validation.

No-one will be sued for removing DRM on their own purchases that they don't share.
People ARE sued for uploading or selling copies of ANYTHING that's copyright, whether or not there was DRM.

Copyright violation is distributing unauthorised copies. You can be sued.

Personal DRM removal and format shifting may or may not be technically illegal (without redistribution). It's not actually something you'll be prosecuted for even if it's technically illegal. You'll certainly not be sued, which is the normal recourse for illegal redistribution of content (copyright violation aka piracy).

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

DRM gives me only advantages - not a single limitation.

And since all of my devices are configured in this way, it doesn't matter much if a device should fail (apart from the device costs), I have my files in my cloud.

DRM removes rights and the protection is an illusion. Also it's got NOTHING to do with copyright violation or format shifting.

The only advantage of DRM is to the companies selling the tools to apply it.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

And also completely irresponsible - what if the reader is lost or even stolen and the files it contains are unprotected!

Exactly the same as if someone's Kindle is stolen and never reconnected to the network. The thief will be able to read the books already on the device, and the owner will be able to download them to another Kindle device.

[maddz]

My take on this is that format shifting to read on a different device or app is no different to reading a paper book in multiple locations - either in my house or outside it. When I used to buy paper books, I certainly didn't buy one copy to read at home in the sitting room, another to read in bed, another to read in my lunch break, another to read on my commute... (Occasionally, I'd pick up a tatty copy from a charity shop to take on holiday and leave behind.)

Most of my purchases are Kindle books; I don't own a Kindle device, I just have the apps on my Macs and idevices. However, I don't read much on the iphone (the screen is too small for my aging eyes), and don't read much more on the ipad (it's too big and heavy to hold comfortably for long), and the various Macs aren't exactly portable (especially the new one). Most of my reading is on my Kobo Forma - it's easy on the eyes, and comfortable to hold, and more importantly fits into my handbag.

So where is the problem in format-shifting a single purchase to read in multiple locations? It's no different to reading a paper copy at home, in the office, on holiday... In all honesty, the author gets more of my money when I buy an ebook because around half my paper copies were second hand purchases.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Exactly the same as if someone's Kindle is stolen and never reconnected to the network. The thief will be able to read the books already on the device, and the owner will be able to download them to another Kindle device.

And the thief will be able to remove the DRM and to distribute illegally to the whole world if he/she wants. The DRM is no protection against thieves.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

And it doesn't matter whether the files on my lost Kindle/Kobo are DRMed or not, they're readable anyway to anyone who finds the device.

Yes that is correct

And they can be deDRMed by anyone who gets their hands on the device.

No, that is very wrong.
He would have to open each page and take a photo of it, merge the individual images, run OCR over it, correct the text and then create an ebook from it.
Without the account data, he cannot do anything with the files except to look at them - otherwise it is garbage.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, that is very wrong.
He would have to open each page and take a photo of it, merge the individual images, run OCR over it, correct the text and then create an ebook from it.
Without the account data, he cannot do anything with the files except to look at them - otherwise it is garbage.

Yes he can. With the serial number of the device. Which is on the device. No other information is needed, at least for Kindle books.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Exactly the same as if someone's Kindle is stolen and never reconnected to the network. The thief will be able to read the books already on the device, and the owner will be able to download them to another Kindle device.

Yes, but the thief can only read - nothing else e.g. upload to a pirate server.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Yes he can. With the serial number of the device. Which is on the device. No other information is needed, at least for Kindle books.

This would theoretically be possible if the device has been logged off - if not, then the thief identifies himself as a stupid thief.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

And the thief will be able to remove the DRM and to distribute illegally to the whole world if he/she wants. The DRM is no protection against thieves.

And that's just a mistake.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

This would theoretically be possible if the device has been logged off - if not, then the thief identifies himself as a stupid thief.

Nope. He can do that absolutely anonymously and without connecting to the internet at all.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

And that's just a mistake.

You don't know anything about the DRM removal, do you? Anyone who steals your device can remove the DRM, because the keys are on the device. Otherwise you would need an internet connection every time you open a book.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Quoth

DRM removes rights and the protection is an illusion. Also it's got NOTHING to do with copyright violation or format shifting.

The only advantage of DRM is to the companies selling the tools to apply it.

DRM is part of the copyright:
§ 90c UrhG protection of technical [measures?]