Ethics and legalities of format shifting

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

What is defended so vehemently here is ultimately theft / embezzlement, in that the compensation due to the publisher and thus also the author is not provided and at best differs gradually from the download of illegal sites.

What are you talking about? i purchased a book, then I read it on whichever of my devices I want. The book was paid for. What compensation is not provided?

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

How is my converting my personally purchased book stealing from the author?

You didn't buy the book, just a license to use the book on the device for which you bought it.
But you can create a security backup.
Thalia allows for its Tolinos family use, Amazon for the Kindles too.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

You didn't buy the book, just a license to use the book on the device for which you bought it.
But you can create a security backup.
Thalia allows for its Tolinos family use, Amazon for the Kindles too.

In no way is my reading a book purchased from Amazon on my Kobo stealing from the author. Yes it is a break of the TOS. But it's not theft in any sense of the word. The author got what they asked for the book.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

In no way is my reading a book purchased from Amazon on my Kobo stealing from the author. Yes it is a break of the TOS. But it's not theft in any sense of the word. The author got what they asked for the book.

You didn't get a book from Amazon, but the license to use a mobi / azw3 / kfx file on your Kindle.
If you want to read this text on your Kobo, you have to get a kepub / epub license from one of the selling shops / libraries.
If you don't do that, are you violating copyright law, which prohibits any modification of the file - or do you not see that a format conversion is a modification of a file?
A paper book is your property and you can do whatever you want with it.
But not a file.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

You didn't get a book from Amazon, but the license to use a mobi / azw3 / kfx file on your Kindle.
If you want to read this text on your Kobo, you have to get a kepub / epub license from one of the selling shops / libraries.
If you don't do that, are you violating copyright law, which prohibits any modification of the file - or do you not see that a format conversion is a modification of a file?
A paper book is your property and you can do whatever you want with it.
But not a file.

I ask again, in what way is that stealing from the author?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Wrong - it's part of copyright law in EU.
I don't know about other countries - maybe it's legal in Somalia or Tibet or .... .

Nonsense. Go to baen.com. Buy one of the books. Download the Mobi format. Side-load onto your Kindle.

Not against the law anywhere.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Forget all Kindles, Kobos, etc. recommendations.
All of these "brands" want to bind buyers to their bookshops through the built-in software.
With an Android EInk tablet (Boox, Likebook) you are independent of all book distributors.
With the Kindle app you can read and also borrow or buy Amazon books, with Libby or the Overdrive you get overdrive books, with the Pocketbook app Adobe DRM books are no problem.
Android EInk Tablets are available in sizes 6, 7.8, 10.3 and 13.3 inches, not 7 inches.
I did learn the hard way by falling for such stupid suggestions (Kindle, Kobo, Tolino) and now only use Android devices from Boyue-Likebook and Onyx-Boox, which I have configured according to my requirements.

I have never once used my Kobo Aura H2O to buy eBooks from Kobo. I have bought from other bookstores as well including Amazon and using Calibre, I've been able to read these eBooks no problem.

You are not forced to use the stores associated with any Reader be it Kobo, Amazon, B&N, etc.

Besides, Android Readers that allow installing Android apps can be a distraction. A Reader such as Kobo has apps that can be installed, but they are not a distraction when reading.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Nonsense. Go to baen.com. Buy one of the books.

Why should I?
They don't have the books I want in the language I want.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

I ask again, in what way is that stealing from the author?

Again, if you have a license, then you have a license to use it on one device. If you want to read this file on a second device, you have to get a second license.
The author is paid for each of these licenses.
The exceptions to this are the family options that some shops offer, but then only for the devices they sell.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

And what is the advantage of sideloading compared to the direct purchase option.
With the latter I am independent of the computer.
And it is simply not possible to read a kfx book on a Kobo, or a kepub on a Kindle.
In some countries you need illegal and definitely violating the terms and conditions conversions and a computer for that.
My question to Kobo and Kindle advertisers: are they paid for advertising, or are they so simple-minded to fall for such simple business models.

From Amazon, you can download KF8 and convert to ePub. From Kobo you can download ePub and convert to KF8. If these have DRM, hat can be removed with the DeDRM plugin for Calibre. So you are not stuck with Reader specific eBooks.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Why should I?
They don't have the books I want in the language I want.

Because it would prove that your argument about putting books purchased elsewhere on a Kobo or Kindle was illegal. Bean sell a license for their books. They do not limit what device or app you can read it on.

There might be an argument that putting a Kindle book on a Kobo, or a Kobo source book on a Kindle is illegal in some jurisdictions. But, ignoring the issues with DRM as both store have plenty of books with no DRM, I have never heard this claim before. I'm pretty sure it isn't an illegal here in Australia, but, I cannot point to laws one way or the other. You make a categorical statement it is illegal in the EU. Can you point to the EU law so that we, and most especially those who live under those laws, can be enlightened?

And, I'm still waiting for you to suggest an actual device. Not a "use an e-ink tablet", but the make and model of one the OP can look at.

And to the OP: Bet you didn't think your simple question would trigger such a storm.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Wrong - it's part of copyright law in EU.
I don't know about other countries - maybe it's legal in Somalia or Tibet or .... .

The OP is in the US. So EU copyright law doesn't apply here.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Again, if you have a license, then you have a license to use it on one device. If you want to read this file on a second device, you have to get a second license.
The author is paid for each of these licenses.
The exceptions to this are the family options that some shops offer, but then only for the devices they sell.

The author is paid in exactly the same way and the same amount, no matter what I do with the file afterwards. It would be stealing if I emailed the book to other people or uploaded it to a file-sharing site, i.e made it accessible to other people and leave the author with fewer buyers. On what personal device I read the book after paying for it has nothing to do with the matter. It's against Amazon TOS, because Amazon obviously wants me to buy the book from them. The author gets paid the same way whether I buy their book from Amazon and read on a Kindle or convert it and read on a Kobo.

With epubs it's not even a question. You can sideload the same epub to your Kobo, your Nook or your Pocketbook without modifying the file. Removing the DRM and/or converting after the purchase may violate the copyright and the TOS of the seller, but again the author gets their money in either case. You seem to have the violation of TOS, the violation of copyright and a criminal offense like stealing all mixed up. They're not the same thing.

[svenlind]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Nope. In fact, Estonian bookstores have detailed instructions on their webpages how to convert and read their watermarked epubs on a Kindle.

And also in Denmark

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The OP is in the US. So EU copyright law doesn't apply here.

But "branded" devices do not offer the capabilities offered by Android devices.
They may be more convenient to use - but only to a very limited extent.
If that's enough for you, you can pay more in total.
In any case, I can get the books from anywhere and read them in whatever setting I want.
And that is not directly possible with any "brand" device without "messing around".