The 'ebooks are not transferable' issue...

[Oldtribe]

I have once purchased an e-book for my brother as a birthday present. I bought and downloaded the file on my account, then sent it to my brother. This action was not condoned by the license, so I first contacted the seller and asked for his approval. He had no problem with it, as long as he could keep track of the licensed file.

My point being, you can always ask. Some smaller resellers are human just like you, and can understand if you honestly ask for permissions to override the license for a special case.

[Jim Lester]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

Calling Adobe and explaining the situation to get them to reset the activations on the textbook turned out to be an exercise in frustration. Hours long hold times, people who don't speak English as a first language, and one person flat out called him a liar. There IS no unregister/re register with these, either.

I'm sorry for you frustrating experience. There is no phone support offered for Digital Editions (or other "free" products Reader, Flash, etc...), and our phone support is dismal in handling these situations. We have both explained to them patiently that they should forward all such requests to the Customer Service web portal (http://www.adobe.com/support/digitaleditions ) and then metaphorically slapped them around when that didn't take.

It's very frustrating as a product team to not have your support staff, support you.

[Lemurion]

I know the assistance I've seen from Adobe employees here on MR has been nothing less than stellar.

[Gafle]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Ah, but if only we all read EULAs every time we made a purchase....

There is a lot of stuff people put in agreements, even when fully aware that it's not enforceable. mobileread.com can put in their agreement, that if you ever quote a post from here on another forum, you agree, that they can take your house.

Well said. In fact I am not even certain that you can legally sign a contract by clicking an icon... or opening a plastic wrapper, for that matter.

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by Jim Lester

I'm sorry for you frustrating experience. There is no phone support offered for Digital Editions (or other "free" products Reader, Flash, etc...), and our phone support is dismal in handling these situations. We have both explained to them patiently that they should forward all such requests to the Customer Service web portal (http://www.adobe.com/support/digitaleditions ) and then metaphorically slapped them around when that didn't take.

It's very frustrating as a product team to not have your support staff, support you.

Wow, that sounds about as frustrating as MY job. Bless your heart. Well, it was frustrating for us, too, at the time, but Chris's school has since replaced Adobe as a vendor of textbooks, in part because of the frustration over too many activations and the problems with getting them reactivated.
I'm not, however, sure we're talking about the same thing. Is there a different sort of DRM for professional and textbooks? Because I got the impression that Chris had gone to the Customer Service portal first, and told to call support from there.

[thibaulthalpern]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

And what about this scenario? I want a book in ebook format. The book is not available in electronic format, anywhere. So, I buy a physical copy of the book, scan it (destroying it in the process), OCR it, and make my own ebook. I bought one copy of the book, I now own one copy of the book. Legal? Probably not. But the author and publisher got their money for one copy of the book, which is what I now own, albeit in a different format than the one I purchased.

There is a statement about reproduction. In the U.S., you're allowed to reproduce a fair portion of a book for personal use and scholarly use but you aren't allowed to reproduce it in full form.

So, your scanning of the book I think would be illegal, meaning not supported by the law, even if you later destroy the physical copy.

On the other hand, who really lives totally by the book? You can't be a human being that way if you lived everything by the book.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by thibaulthalpern

There is a statement about reproduction. In the U.S., you're allowed to reproduce a fair portion of a book for personal use and scholarly use but you aren't allowed to reproduce it in full form.

I thought the statements about "fair portion" had to do with re-distribution of the material for review, reporting, parody... etc.

As far as making a personal use copy, I don't think there is any specification that it may only be a small portion.

[Sydney's Mom]

Doesn't the first sale rule cover transfer of ebooks? Meaning I can resell, so long as I transfer all of my rights, without violating copyright.

[Jim Lester]

Originally Posted by Sydney's Mom

Doesn't the first sale rule cover transfer of ebooks? Meaning I can resell, so long as I transfer all of my rights, without violating copyright.

First Sale doctrine applies for something you purchase, however as been pointed out previously in this thread, you never purchase an eBook, you license it. Read the terms of sales closely.

For instance if you go look at Amazon (just to pick on somebody - not saying that they are particularly good or bad about this)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=200144530

Originally Posted by Amazon

Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

(note: I added the bolding in the quote above)

[shousa]

Here are examples that I think better shows the true un-enforceability of what these companies may be (as new I admit most of the DRM issues are protection and these issues for many companies are "unintended" but for others they are not) trying to do.

A husband buys a self-help ebook which he reads to his wife.

A father buys an ebook which he reads to his child off his reader.

A father buys an ebook for his child to read off his reader.

A mother buys an ebook reader and a whole library of books for her children (plural).

A teacher reads a story to his class.

Oops, in each case the license rule has been broken! In each case many more copies of the ebook should have been bought.

History teaches us companies are immoral and will do anything to make a profit. The worst cases are selling blood products known to be infected with HIV or not recalling defective cars that had a fatal design fault (paying claims was determined to be cheaper). However, look at all the laws we have about the "smaller stuff".

Many laws exist to protect us from the companies.

This area is new and as yet we are unprotected.

I felt the tone of some people in this thread is that the companies are moral. Some are and some aren't is my point. The licensing rule seems to me to be a way for them to make a fortune (eg teacher reading to his class requires 1 ebook purchase for the teacher and 34 for the kids).

An ebook should be treated as a book IMHO.

The public will demand this I believe.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Jim Lester

First Sale doctrine applies for something you purchase, however as been pointed out previously in this thread, you never purchase an eBook, you license it. Read the terms of sales closely.

For instance if you go look at Amazon (just to pick on somebody - not saying that they are particularly good or bad about this)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=200144530

(note: I added the bolding in the quote above)

There are many reasons why that is less than correct. Here are the top two:

that is an implicit agreement, and is difficult to enforce;

there are legal principles in the US that can be summed up as "if it looks like a sale, it's not a license".


This is an old topic here on MobileRead. Most of the older members here (including me) are burned out on the issue. I'm throwing these out there for someone else to think about and explain.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by ErwinOtten

I don't know because I don't know the terms of the i-Tunes music store.

The question here was not if it's possible. Of course it's possible. I can put the PID from a friend's device in my account and download one of my books for him. It's basically the same as lending him a paper book of mine.
Do I find it morally acceptable? That's beside the point. The store's terms just make it an illegal action.
As been mentioned in another thread, you don't buy a book anymore; you just buy the right to read a book. And that's a completely different thing. People are just starting to realize that now..

The store's terms do NOT make it an "illegal" action. It is NOT illegal to violate a contract. If you violate a contract, the other party to the contract can take actions to enforce the contract. Those actions can be to deny you some right you think you have, or ultimately, to sue you. But just because a contract says you agree not to do something doesn't mean that you have violated the law if you do it.

Putting aside the DMCA, which is the subject in another thread, here's what's illegal, per Title 17 of the US Code, section 506: (Bold added)

(1) In general.— Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, if the infringement was committed—
(A) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;
(B) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180–day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000; or
(C) by the distribution of a work being prepared for commercial distribution, by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if such person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.
(2) Evidence.— For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement of a copyright.

Look at the words I've bolded. Basically, what this law says is "don't worry about violating the criminal law if you are treating an ebook as if it were a physical book."

As for the idea that you do not buy a book anymore, it's simply not true. Even if you are only talking about ebooks, it's not really true. Whether or not you have bought something and own it is not decided by the words one party places in a contract that the other party has to take or leave. That kind of contract is called a "contract of adhesion" and will not be enforced if a court determines that the terms of the contract are "unconscionable." Unconscionable is a legal term meaning "offends the court's sense of what is fair."

The problem is that ebook and other digital technologies have given rise to a legal environment in which we have not yet worked out what is legitimate to put in a contract, and what is not. So the sellers are taking advantage of this situation, plus the ephemeral nature of ebooks, to assert "rights" that in point of fact and law they do not have, and which in many instances will not be enforced if the matter gets in to court.

As far as I'm concerned, I ignore the provisions of any "contract" with an ebook seller if those provisions are aimed at restricting my right to keep, read, sell or give away an ebook I've bought. Note that I did not include "copy and give away" an ebook while keeping a copy for myself.

My advice to anyone in the US is to do what seems fair and makes common sense, conforming to the way that you would deal with a physical book.

Sure, you want to act morally - just remember that the seller doesn't get to define "morality" for you by handing you a contract you can't negotiate about, and have to either take or leave.

For example, if you give away or sell your reader, of course you can leave the books on it - unless you plan to go back to the seller & download another copy for yourself. After all, you wouldn't sell a physical book, then go down to Borders and just walk off with another copy from their shelves.

Basically, no one has any need to fear the law if they deal with an ebook as if it were a physical book. About the worst thing that could happen is that if Amazon finds out, somehow, that you are violating their "contract," they can cut you off. There's not much you could do about that, so try not to come to their attention. Me, I have a Sony. I don't need no stinkin' Amazon.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Jim Lester

First Sale doctrine applies for something you purchase, however as been pointed out previously in this thread, you never purchase an eBook, you license it. Read the terms of sales closely.

For instance if you go look at Amazon (just to pick on somebody - not saying that they are particularly good or bad about this)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...deId=200144530

(note: I added the bolding in the quote above)

Amazon says I am buying the eBook with 1-click. It does not say licensing with 1-click. So since I am buying, I am buying all the fair use that comes with the purchase. Now if the button said licensing with 1-click, that would be different. So tell Amazon that they EULA is bogus and not going to wash since I just bought it due to their buy with 1-click worded button.

[JSWolf]

Let's say I have eBooks I have decided I am not going to read a second time. Now, the DRM would stop me from selling these eBooks. But if these eBooks were DRM stripped due to the exception to the DMCA, I should then have the right to sell one copy of each books I want to sell as long as when I send off these eBooks on CD, I no longer have any copies at all. My fair use is being violated if I am told I cannot sell them to someone else.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

This is an old topic here on MobileRead. Most of the older members here (including me) are burned out on the issue. I'm throwing these out there for someone else to think about and explain.

Because of the FTC town meeting, we are hearing/reading new arguments that have not come up before. One that the EFF lawyer brought up was the wording when we spend out money. Words like purchase and buy.