Cost of eBooks vs dead-tree books

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

I like your

"Literacy=Understanding" tag

I wish it was true.

Me to. Unfortunately, it is not and for so many reasons. I'll leave it for another time rather than hijack this thread.

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I disagree there. If you want literary junk food about vampires, for instance, Twilight and The Summoning would give you entirely different experiences. One I would dislike, one I would love. Books are not fungible.

I have no opinion on the current pricing of ebooks.

Zod. I had no idea you were a Twilight fan! But thanks for recommending The Summoning. I will give it a try.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

. . . As far as pricing goes, yea, I get that some people want free books, or at least dirt cheap books. Well, there is always PD books and Kindle Unlimited. . . .

I am not looking for free books or dirt cheap books (although I wouldn't object to either ). What I want is "reasonable" pricing. I realize that "reasonable" is in the eyes of the beholder.

I don't find that paying $50, or even $100 or more (one book I bought a few years ago cost $495), for a hardcover that I want is unreasonable when I can see that the hardcover price bears some real-world relationship to the paperback and ebook pricing. It is when there is no recognizable relationship that bothers me. It is as if the publisher or seller does not want to sell the hardcover, but then why offer it. I do not see why a hardcover should cost $70 more than a paperback or ebook. That "spread" I see as unreasonable.

As for Kindle Unlimited, I signed up for that for my wife. We are still in the trial period and are evaluating whether it is worth the subscription for her.

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

Until I discovered that'd I'd made a faulty assumption. Those books haven't been published in mass-market paperback. They're both only in what I always saw referred to as "trade paperback", simply called "paperback" on amazon.ca ($19.87 CDN) and chapters-indigo.ca ($23).

Which makes it another case of the ebook being the cheapest option. By a fair margin if you're buying from Chapters-Indigo (which I'll admit, I do somewhat prefer. I figure Bezos & co. have enough money coming in, and at least Canada is the primary market for Chapters-Indigo.)

I do find it odd that a successful author like Novik isn't getting a m-m paperback release of some of her books. Is the format on the downswing I wonder?

I was friendly with the owners of a sci-fi/mystery book store in Vancouver, and we talked a fair bit about the mass-market paperback (MMPB) "recession". Trade paperbacks are being pushed because they are much higher in price. Many books don't even get to the MMPB stage anymore, most likely because they aren't expected to sell in big numbers to non-fans. Big publishers aren't selling as many books anymore, so they are looking to make more on each sale.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by rkomar

Trade paperbacks are being pushed because they are much higher in price. Many books don't even get to the MMPB stage anymore, most likely because they aren't expected to sell in big numbers to non-fans. Big publishers aren't selling as many books anymore, so they are looking to make more on each sale.

In SciFi, trade is increasingly the only paperback format available, even for very well selling books many years later. MMPB seems dead for some SciFi publishers.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

However, it is much easier to turn a P-book into an E-book than the other way around.
That determines the value, among other things.

Once you have the eBook, you can load that into Word or InDesign and it may not need all that much format fixing to make it ready to be a pBook.

Also, making an eBook may not be easier especially if there is only a PDF as the electronic source or there is no electronic source and you have the scan/OCR.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Once you have the eBook, you can load that into Word or InDesign and it may not need all that much format fixing to make it ready to be a pBook.

If you print it, it cost paper and ink

Also, making an eBook may not be easier especially if there is only a PDF as the electronic source or there is no electronic source and you have the scan/OCR.

This costs nothing.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Once you have the eBook, you can load that into Word or InDesign and it may not need all that much format fixing to make it ready to be a pBook.

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

If you print it, it cost paper and ink

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Also, making an eBook may not be easier especially if there is only a PDF as the electronic source or there is no electronic source and you have the scan/OCR.

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

This costs nothing.

Ah...see, to me, the time involved in fixing the scanned PDF is worth much more than the nominal cost of paper and ink.

Either way, it seems that goal posts have been moved, since you are now talking about the *cost* of converting an ebook to a paper book, when before you were talking about the relative ease of doing so.

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

However, it is much easier to turn a P-book into an E-book than the other way around.
That determines the value, among other things.

Shari

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

I have created around 500 ebooks from paper books without any problems, whereby I did not attach any importance to the layout of the paper book.
But not yet a paper book from an ebook

We do both ebooks and paper versions.
There is no problem creating a proper epub from a paper only copy, but even with cutting off the spine and a sheet feeder it's a huge amount of time compared to reformatting wordprocessor source that's perfect for a ebook into source for professional paper book.

We only proof print maybe 8 pages on paper, ever. The printing company prints our PDF on paper.

We proof read and annotate on eink. Not on paper since about 1996 and not on a laptop screen since about 2014.

We do quickly check PDFs by printing about 8 pages in duplex and double page on the laptop for all front matter / contents/chapter starts/rear matter.

We do proof print covers.

The default styles and layouts we have in LO Writer convert with no additional HTML or CSS editing to epub. Amazon KDP gets epub. We test Amazon formats by conversion from epub and also download Amazon's preview. We don't test KFX, only old mobi and current AZW3/KF8.

Paper books ideally need a binding offset, so left and right pages. Typically the front and rear matter is different to ebooks. The contents section is different. Footnotes are different. The pages have headers and footers with page numbers and might have the chapter.
If an end of page or chapter error creeps in the POD/Printer's version of the PDF might miss a page break or have an extra one, and thus the binding offset becomes the outer margin. The House Style Guide might mandate that a chapter always starts on a right hand page, or any new page. Some publishers only have a larger break. MS Word has an end of line bug that sometimes only shows up on a copy of a PDF. To clear it: Hit return then backspace delete.

Decent paper layout is different to ebook. You might also replace some spaces on the paper version with skinnier spaces, best avoided on ebooks. While small caps, standing caps and drop caps are possible in ebooks, we avoid all of that so as to have maximum compatibility. You might want them on paper. Paper can use fonts that don't work so well in ebooks. Paper can have more exotic image / text layout than is wise to attempt on ebooks.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I disagree there. If you want literary junk food about vampires, for instance, Twilight and The Summoning would give you entirely different experiences. One I would dislike, one I would love. Books are not fungible.

I have no opinion on the current pricing of ebooks.

I agree with you. Much like movies and music, books tends to be very specific. If someone wants Harry Potter, then buying the latest Harry Potter fanfic probably isn't going to satisfy them. Lots of people like Harry Potter fanfic, but it's not what most expect under the tree when they ask for Harry Potter. The book industry is very much driven by best seller authors. Some genre books can be formulaic to the point where they are generic, but even in that case, the reader is looking for a specific type of book.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

We find it easier to produce an ebook from wordprocessor source and then extra work is needed to create a PDF for a professional paper book.

It's a huge amount of work to make an ebook if you've lost the wordproccessor files and only have a PDF for print creation.
It's an even greater amount of work if you don't even have the PDF, but only film to make plates or just a printed copy. Though pirates do use paper ARC, often they make only a scanned PDF with maybe an unproofed OCR layer.
PDFs are not ebooks. They are facsimiles either from printed material, or files to create printed material. You need a screen big enough for paper size and original font size with enough resolution. Inherently PDFs describe a page size and layout, not content for an arbitrary size of screen.

So I'd say it's MUCH easier to create a paper book if you have an ebook, even if only in ebook format as you can easily get 100% of the content and style for the Wordprocessor. It's true that images might need to be sourced at higher quality, but OTOH, coffee table book photo content is very tricky to deal with for everything from 4" 150dpi to 10" 300 dpi screens.

The word processor file can be a lot of work if the author has no idea how to use styles and does things all the wrong way. If Word is used, the wrong way can end up with one heck of a mess that you then need to fix once you've converted to the ePub. Been there, done that. Just look at some eBook on Smashwords that came from Word. Just an awful mess that just barely clears epubcheck.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Pajamaman

What's the best way to scan a hardback? I don't have a scanner. I have an iPad.

Take a picture of each page and OCR these photos. Doing it that way (IMHO) is not worth it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by barryem

The theory, at least, is that now it's being done without collusion, making it legal. I can't remember which publisher began it again. I think it was MacMillan but I'm not sure. They threatened to remove their books from Amazon if Amazon didn't agree to let them set prices. Amazon first said no but eventually gave in. It was only later that the others began to do it.

If there is a legal way to prevent agency pricing I'd sure be in favor of that. But I'm not sure there is. It does seem anti-competitive to me but I'm no lawyer.

Barry

It was Apple that convinced the other publishers into the illegal collusion. The problem was that the Justice Department allowed the collusion to continue with just a slap on the wrist. The best punishment for the publishers would have been to make them go back to the way eBooks were priced before Apple got involved. That would have been the perfect punishment.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by shalym

Maybe the paper book *is* being remaindered at Amazon? At Barnes & Noble the paper book is $15.50 while the ebook is, of course, $11.99, same price as it is at every other store in the US.

Shari

Now is not the time to remainder Ready Player One as Ready Player Two was recently released. Plus, that is the current pBook format and that doesn't get remaindered.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

Interestingly enough, I came across this thread just after buying Naomi Novik's "A Deadly Education" (currently on sale @ multiple retailers). I'm a fan of Novik's, although I don't own many of her books; I keep meaning to get more.

Looking at the prices for Uprooted and Spinning Silver I was quite dismayed that the publisher was charging so much more for the ebook than the mass-market paperback.

Until I discovered that'd I'd made a faulty assumption. Those books haven't been published in mass-market paperback. They're both only in what I always saw referred to as "trade paperback", simply called "paperback" on amazon.ca ($19.87 CDN) and chapters-indigo.ca ($23).

Which makes it another case of the ebook being the cheapest option. By a fair margin if you're buying from Chapters-Indigo (which I'll admit, I do somewhat prefer. I figure Bezos & co. have enough money coming in, and at least Canada is the primary market for Chapters-Indigo.)

I do find it odd that a successful author like Novik isn't getting a m-m paperback release of some of her books. Is the format on the downswing I wonder?

Trade Paperback is a format that should go away forever. It's larger, doesn't feel good holding it, and it was created so publishers could charge more then the do for Mass Market pBooks. Most bookshelves are not able to fit Trade but do fit MM. Plus, Trade takes up a lot more room because of the height.

Because Trade costs more, they can increase the price of the eBook. The publishers are out to get us. They used illegal tactics and got away with it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

This costs nothing.

Is your time and effort worth nothing to create an eBook from a pBook or PDF?