What makes a (human) e-reader? - Page 3

Uncle Robin · 09-07-2020, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

Hmmm... I was reading documentation on my CP/M Z-80 based computer in 1978 (4MHz CPU, 64KiB, 2x1.4MB floppy disks). Even earlier on IBM/Amdahl mainframes and Data General and DEC minicomputers. Though I'm not sure if any of really qualifies as ebooks since they were pretty much simple text files.

I worded that question with great care to be as broad as possible "non-paper-based content delivery systems", so txt files would count. Whether you consider that documentation to have been "recreational reading", the other part of the question, is entirely your call.

MarjaE · 09-07-2020, 07:22 PM

I used to do a lot of reading on my computer, before switching to e-readers.

I am surprised that there seems to be a meh/hate split for audio instead of a love/hate split. I have hyperacusis, and auditory processing problems, and live in a painfully noisy neighborhood, so for me it's a definite hate, but I can imagine for some people it's the opposite. Maybe using a bulletin board causes some sampling bias.

Uncle Robin · 09-07-2020, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarjaE

IMaybe using a bulletin board causes some sampling bias.

Undoubtedly. I've been at pains to repeatedly stress the absence of statistical rigour in what was intended as "infotainment"

MGlitch · 09-07-2020, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarjaE

I used to do a lot of reading on my computer, before switching to e-readers.

I am surprised that there seems to be a meh/hate split for audio instead of a love/hate split. I have hyperacusis, and auditory processing problems, and live in a painfully noisy neighborhood, so for me it's a definite hate, but I can imagine for some people it's the opposite. Maybe using a bulletin board causes some sampling bias.

I don’t listen to audiobooks. They don’t work for me, I like to reread lines and words, on top of that I just can’t focus on audiobooks. But I wouldn’t say I hate them. They take nothing away from me.

DNSB · 09-07-2020, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Robin

I worded that question with great care to be as broad as possible "non-paper-based content delivery systems", so txt files would count. Whether you consider that documentation to have been "recreational reading", the other part of the question, is entirely your call.

Some of it was recreational reading such as Zoso's comments in the CP/MUG diskettes. One sample enclosed here. And no, I don't still have the 8" floppy disk copies. Way back when, I picked up the CDROM of the CP/MUG diskettes.

Spoiler:

Code:

			ZOSO'S HOLIDAY VISIT
			--------------------


	SINCE LAST WE MET, I HAVE GROWN GLOOMY. IT IS CERTAIN THAT MY LIFE
AS A BASIC-E ARCHIVIST PRESENTS [THANKS TO YOU] THE SAME REWARDS AND CHALLENGES
AS THOSE THAT CAN BE DERIVED FROM TOLL-COLLECTION [AFTER YOU PASS THE CIVIL-
SERVICE EXAM].

	TONY TELLS ME THAT SOME OF YOU WITH TTY'S HAVE COMPLAINED THAT MY
MAUNDERINGS TAKE TOO LONG TO PRINT. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO USE SUCH DEVICES
AS A CONSOLE, WE COULD HAVE HAD A NICE DEBATE FIVE YEARS AGO. I DON'T MEAN
TO ACT OVERLY SENSITIVE TO CRITICISM, BUT UNLESS YOU TTY PEOPLE ARE WRITING
THIS SLANDER FROM THE BOWELS OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER, AND THE DATE ON YOUR
CRUDELY LIMNED POISON-PEN LETTERS IS PRIOR TO 'VE DAY' THEN ALL I CAN SAY
IS, "MAY YOU LEARN TO 'SPEED-READ' AT 10-C.P.S.".

	THE MERE MENTION OF THIS HAS SO UPSET ME, THAT I SHALL HAVE TO DIGRESS
FURTHER... ONE COMPUTER-CLUB MEETING WAS TOO MUCH FOR ME... ALL THOSE 'GEEKS'
ARGUING RELATIVE MERITS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE SYSTEMS (HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE).
I'M NOT A PAID ADVERTISER, SO WHAT THE HELL... I LIKE THE Z-80... SOFTWARE IS 
QUITE ANOTHER ISSUE; I HAVE EXHAUSTIVELY EXAMINED ALL THE 'BASICS' AVAILABLE
FOR THE 8080//Z-80, AT PRESENT. IN THIS AREA, I HAVE SOME FIRM [AND PERHAPS 
HELPFUL] OPINIONS WHICH I WISH TO SHARE... (DON'T ARGUE; I OWE YOU NOTHING) !

THERE ARE ONLY THREE REALLY GOOD BASICS FOR THESE PROCESSORS (S-100 BUS ONLY):

	1 - MITS/MICROSOFT
	2 - TDL
	3 - BASIC-E//C-BASIC

IT IS NO ACCIDENT THAT I LISTED THEM IN THIS ORDER. IF ANY OF YOU HAVE SEEN OR
USED TDL'S 12K BASIC, I'M SURE YOU WISH (AS I DO) THAT THEY HAD ISSUED A CP/M
DISK BASIC. MICROSOFT DISK BASIC IS [THOUGH NOT PERFECT] BY FAR THE 'STATE OF
THE ART'. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO RUN SUCH EXCELLENT SOFTWARE ON ALTAIR DISKS, IT
IS RUMORED THAT THE VOLTAGE MINISTER FROM THE UGANDAN-REPUBLIC WILL VISIT YOUR
VERY TOWN, AND OFFER YOU BIG BUCKS FOR YOUR EQUIPMENT... YOU SEE, THEY NEED
MACHINERY LIKE YOURS TO MAINTAIN THEIR S--T LISTS, (AND YOU MUST KNOW WHY)...

	THE MAIN ISSUE I WANTED TO RAISE WAS: HOW DO I STAND ON BASIC-E...?

I HAVE WRITTEN A SHORT DRAMA FOR YOU, IN WHICH I PLAY MYSELF... AND FOR YOU
SOFTWARE PIRATES; I ONLY STOLE MR. DICKENS' TITLE, NOT HIS ENTIRE WORK.

			=================
			A CHRISTMAS CAROL
			=================


			DRAMATIS PERSONAE:

BE: ADVOCATE OF BASIC-E    --  AND HIS RETINUE OF 'WRONGOS'
ZO: YOUR HUMBLE REVIEWER   --  WONDER WHY THE ALIAS ?
AN: ANNOUNCER              --  SO FAR, AN HONEST JOURNEYMAN
CH: THE CHORUS             --  FROM THOSE QUAALUDE-LIKE GREEK PLAYS


			ACT I


BE: BASIC-E IS A COMPILER.
ZO: I SEE; BUT THERE ARE OINTMENTS TO RELIEVE THAT.

BE: YOU CAN 'SECURE' YOUR PROGRAMS BY ONLY GIVING A CLIENT THE 'INT' FILE OF
    YOUR 'PAYROLL' OR WHATEVER.
ZO: NO DOUBT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SELL YOUR PAYROLL PROGRAM TO SOME ESKIMO IN
    POINT BARROW ALASKA, WHOSE 100 EMPLOYEES SELL FREEZERS. OF COURSE EACH
    TIME HE NEEDS A MINOR CHANGE TO THE 'INT' FILE YOU GAVE HIM, YOU CAN
    DISPATCH YOUR HELICOPTER WITH A FRESHLY COMPILED VERSION. IN MOST CASES
    SMALL BUSINESSES ARE TOO CONCERNED WITH THEIR REGULAR AFFAIRS TO RIP-
    OFF YOUR PROGRAM; ADDITIONALLY, SOME INDIVIDUALS HAVE MADE REMARKABLE
    PROGRESS IN 'SECURING' PROGRAMS WRITTEN FOR INTERPRETER BASICS.

	(*)  -  << !!! URGENT BULLETIN - CHECK UPDATE BELOW !!! >>

BE: BASIC-E IS MORE MEMORY EFFICIENT.
ZO: TRUE, BUT TIME IS MONEY, AND MEMORY IS GETTING CHEAP.

BE: BASIC-E IS A PUBLIC-DOMAIN ITEM. ANYONE CAN IMPROVE IT FOR THE BENEFIT
    OF ALL OF US.
CH: GET US OUR SHOVELS !
ZO: YOU'RE RIGHT! THAT IS WHY THERE ARE SO MANY TOTALLY INCOMPATIBLE VERSIONS
    FLOATING AROUND NOW. DID YOU KNOW THAT ONE VENDOR HAS SEPARATE RUN PACKAGES
    FOR DISK AND NON-DISK FILES? IF THE AUTHOR OF BASIC-E OFFERED IT FOR THE
    "GOOD OF THE COMPUTER COMMUNITY", WHY HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE TAKEN
    IT UPON THEMSELVES TO FIX ONE OR TWO MINOR 'BUGS' AND THEN RELEASED SUCH
    ENHANCEMENTS AS PROPRIETARY PROJECTS, WORTH THE [FILL IN THE BLANK] DOL-
    LARS, YOU PAID FOR THEM. THE LATEST [$100.00] VERSION PROVED TO ME, BEYOND
    ANY DOUBT, THAT BY THE TIME BASIC-E IS PERFECTED, ITS ADHERENTS WILL HAVE
    PAID LIKE A DRUG ADDICT FOR THEIR PARTICULAR SENSE OF PARTICIPATION, AND
    WILL HAVE 'MISSED THE BOAT' IN THE INTERIM.

BE: THERE ARE MORE ERROR MESSAGES (PROGRAM DIAGNOSTICS) IN BASIC-E. IT'S EASIER
    TO GET MY SECOND [OH SURE !] TRY RIGHT.
ZO: UH-HUH... I REMEMBER THE WAY THAT WORKS. HERE'S AN EXAMPLE:
    100:IF NOT TM<>DC THEN GY=GY+YOUR.BUCKS
        CH       			  ^   [HONEST, THEY LOOK LIKE THIS] !
    HOW OBVIOUS...!! 'TM' IS YOUR LADY'S 'TIME-OF-MONTH'. 'DC' IS THE MINOR
    SURGERY SHE NEEDS [<IF LAST.TM+ABS(LAST.TM+(28*3)) LE NEW.TM>] SIMPLE, EH? 
    OF COURSE, 'GY' IS THE 'SURGEON' IN THE DRAMA, AND 'YOUR.BUCKS' IS THE
    REASON YOU GOT A 'CH' ERROR... DIG OUT YOUR MANUAL (IF YOU EVEN HAVE THE
    LATEST ONE), AND YOU WILL SEE THAT 'CH' IS THE 'CAN'T HAPPEN' ERROR WHICH
    IS CERTAINLY TRUE, SINCE YOUR LADY HAS NOT LET YOU TOUCH HER FOR THE LAST
    TWO YEARS...

BE: WE CAN USE LONG SIGNIFICANT VARIABLE NAMES TO MAKE OUR SOURCE CODE MORE
    READABLE; FOR EXAMPLE:
    TAKEHOME.PAY=HOURLY.RATE.PAY+OVERTIME.PAY+XMAS.BONUS-TAXES.WITHELD
ZO: IT DOES LOOK GOOD ON THOSE SOUPED UP CRT'S WITH HALF-INTENSITY, REVERSE
    VIDEO ETC. BUT WHATS WRONG WITH: TP=HR+OP+XB-TW ? I HAVE FOUND NO SPECIAL
    HARDSHIP IN USING THE 2 CHARACTER VARIABLE NOR ANY SPECIAL BENEFIT IN
    USING THE LONGER ONES... ALSO THE INTERPRETER BASICS I MENTIONED HAVE A
    [HARDCOPY/PAPER EFFICIENT] TRACE MODE. EVEN THE MOST LOGICALLY CONVOLUTED
    PROGRAMS CAN EASILY BE SO UNENTANGLED; THOSE PRETENSIONS [ OF BASIC-E ]
    ARE ONLY USEFUL IF THE PROGRAMMER CAN MAINTAIN THE SEMBLANCE OF AN EIGHTH
    GRADE EDUCATION WHEN GIVEN THE 'POWER' OF LONG VARIABLE NAMES... YOU WOULD
    SUFFOCATE IN SELF-DOUBT IF YOU SAW HOW OFTEN SUCH AN ENHANCEMENT WAS USED
    THUSLY: 'ON ENTPRIZE.FUEL+LOSTIME.SPC.WRPS*(INT(SPOCK)) GO TO...' FACE THIS
    FACT OF LIFE!!! SOME CAN SPELL; AND SOME CAN PROGRAM. NEVER, (WELL ALMOST
    NEVER), THE TWAIN SHALL MEET...

BE: WELL THERE REALLY ARE A LOT! MORE SPECIFIC ERROR MESSAGES.
ZO: YES, I'M ESPECIALLY FOND OF THE 'NP' ('NO SUCH ANIMAL') ONE... BUT I REALLY
    DISLIKE THE WAY IN WHICH ANY RUN-TIME ERRORS RETURN ME TO CP/M COMMAND
    LEVEL (AS DO THOSE ERROR TRAPS WHICH YOU HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO WRITE !).

BE: I PERSONALLY PREFER PREPARING PROGRAMS WITH A TEXT EDITOR. THE 'MACRO'
    COMMAND IS REALLY POWERFUL.
ZO: YOU HORSE'S [BODY PART], IF YOU USE AN INTERPRETER BASIC WITH 'ASCII-SAVE',
    YOU CAN USE THE TEXT EDITOR OR THE [BETTER] BASIC'S LINE EDITOR, WHICH
    I FEEL IS A FAR MORE POTENT TOOL. THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS IF YOU WILL...

CH: WE SEE THE CROCODILE TEARS WELLING IN THE EYES OF THAT SENSITIVE YOUNG
    'ARTISTE', BE:...

AN: 'THE STARS BELONG TO EVERYONE, THE BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE FREE...'
CH: YES, AND YOU CATCH YOU KNOW WHAT FROM PUBLIC W.C.'S; JUST ASK GRANDPA...

			ACT II

ZO: PERHAPS I WAS A BIT HARSH ON HIM. I THINK I'LL HAVE A FEW BEERS, AND
    ENROLL IN CHARM SCHOOL TOMORROW. I NEVER DID GET TO POINT OUT THAT TO
    CORRECT A SINGLE 'TYPO' IN A LARGE BASIC-E SOURCE CAN CONSUME THE BETTER
    PART OF TWENTY MINUTES AND THAT'S ABOUT 100 TIMES SLOWER THAN DOING THE
    SAME THING WITH THOSE INTERPRETER BASICS [WHICH I PREFER].

CH: MEANWHILE IN A TINY ATTIC OF A RATTY OLD HOUSE, DOWNWIND FROM THE SMOKE-
    STACKS OF A LARGE PESTICIDE FACTORY... SLOW THINKING FOLKS, WITH ACCENTS
    ONE IS HARD-PRESSED NOT TO LAUGH AT; SEXUAL HANG-UPS GALORE; A WRETCHED
    ENVIRONMENT FROM WHICH ONLY THE MOST GIFTED ESCAPE... (SORRY, BE:)

BE: HEAVENS TO BETSY ! MY 34K STARTREK IS PERFECT, EXCEPT IT SIGNS ON AS,
    'STARDREK'... I'LL HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE EDITOR AND THEN THE COMPILER,
    I'M GOING CRAZY...

    A SHORT WHILE LATER...

AN: AND SO 'BE:', A NOVICE PROGRAMMER, WAS ARRESTED BY GOVERNMENT AGENTS FOR
    ALLEGEDLY EXPOSING HIMSELF TO THE [UNIDENTIFIED] ESTRANGED WIFE OF CANADA'S
    PRIME MINISTER [I DREAM ABOUT YOU A LOT M.T., HEH, HEH...].

CH: DON'T LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU...

			EPILOGUE

ZO: THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR(S) OF BASIC-E ARE DESERVING OF PRAISE FOR HAVING
    RELEASED A GOOD PRODUCT TO THE PUBLIC. THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE
    WRITTEN WONDERFUL AND WELL DOCUMENTED MATERIAL IN BASIC-E. THE ABOVE-
    MENTIONED ARE ASSURED THAT I SPECIFICALLY EXEMPT THEM FROM ANYTHING
    OF A CRITICAL NATURE THAT I MAY HAVE SAID. I ONLY LAMENT THE FACT THAT
    TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE GONE TOO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS WITH BASIC/E, AND
    WHEN CODE IS LAZILY PREPARED (FOR BASIC/E), IT BECOMES UNWIELDY AS
    ONE COULD EVER, EVER IMAGINE.

(*):IMPORTANT BULLETIN !!! IT HAS BEEN WIDELY REPORTED THAT SOME GULLIBLE
    HOBBYISTS HAVE BEEN 'EUCHRED' INTO PURCHASING ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS
    'INT' FILES OF PROGRAMS FOR WHICH THEY SINCERELY FELT THE SOURCE WAS
    FOR SALE. IF YOU ARE NOT PROMISED THE ORIGINAL & ENTIRE SOURCE IN
    WRITING, PAY NOT CENT-ONE FOR ANYTHING YOU MAY SEE ADVERTISED IN EITHER
    BASIC-E, OR C-BASIC. BY THIS, I MEAN SPECIFICALLY THAT YOU [FEW] HYPER-
    SECRETIVE SORTS WHO DARE CHARGE FOR RAW MACHINE-CODE [UNLESS SO ADVERTISED,
    AND I MEAN EXPLICITLY] WILL HAVE ABOUT 60 DAYS BEFORE YOUR BUSINESS CON-
    FORMS TO REALITY, OR WORD-OF-MOUTH [PERHAPS MINE] KILLS IT.

			FINIS

	NOW UNDERSTAND THIS PLEASE, I ONLY DO 'PASSION-PLAYS' FOR THE
        HOLIDAYS.

Uncle Robin · 09-07-2020, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

Some of it was recreational reading such as Zoso's comments in the CP/MUG diskettes. One sample enclosed here. And no, I don't still have the 8" floppy disk copies. Way back when, I picked up the CDROM of the CP/MUG diskettes.

Spoiler:

DEFINITELY recreational, thanks for sharing!

issybird · 09-08-2020, 08:34 AM

This was fun. Some of it confirms what I’d already assumed, particularly in the context of an internet forum. Sheer speculation as to what extent this skews the results. The age, for example, which is three quarters middle-aged and old - is that because readers tend to be codgers, or because forums mostly consist of codgers? Some of both, of course, but how much?

I think what most stuck out for me is that MR skews male. I reveal my own gender bias by saying that if one sex reads more than the other, I’d have thought it was female. Is it the technical aspect of MR? Is that a biased question? Are males simply more likely to answer polls?

What did get an eyeroll from me are the answers that seemed to be uncomfortable with choosing European instead of white. But since there was a multiple choice option, I assume that some chose European and then other to define it. Why, I don’t know.

Thanks, Uncle Robin.

4691mls · 09-08-2020, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfrizz

Your question didn't take into account anyone who is of mixed heritage, or offer the ability of more than one choice. If you had, I would have been able to click on European & African American.

I assume you are from Europe, and based the survey on how they do them, because here in the states, we classify by color of skin and your education levels are High school, Associates, Bachelors, Masters, PHD, and GED if you didn't finish High school.

For both those questions I used the other option.

Yes, I'm in the US and the categories you listed are the ones I am familiar with.

twowheels · 09-08-2020, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

Hmmm... I was reading documentation on my CP/M Z-80 based computer in 1978 (4MHz CPU, 64KiB, 2x1.4MB floppy disks). Even earlier on IBM/Amdahl mainframes and Data General and DEC minicomputers. Though I'm not sure if any of really qualifies as ebooks since they were pretty much simple text files.

Well, I've read tons of documentation on computers, but I don't consider that reading ebooks -- I guess I was more focused on literature and the like.

twowheels · 09-08-2020, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Robin

Ford Prefect?

Does referencing the guide count as "reading" though?

cfrizz · 09-08-2020, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by issybird

This was fun. Some of it confirms what I’d already assumed, particularly in the context of an internet forum. Sheer speculation as to what extent this skews the results. The age, for example, which is three quarters middle-aged and old - is that because readers tend to be codgers, or because forums mostly consist of codgers? Some of both, of course, but how much?

I think what most stuck out for me is that MR skews male. I reveal my own gender bias by saying that if one sex reads more than the other, I’d have thought it was female. Is it the technical aspect of MR? Is that a biased question? Are males simply more likely to answer polls?

What did get an eyeroll from me are the answers that seemed to be uncomfortable with choosing European instead of white. But since there was a multiple choice option, I assume that some chose European and then other to define it. Why, I don’t know.

Thanks, Uncle Robin.

I think that for the most part, women can't be bothered doing a poll because we just don't care, we are too busy reading. We might show up, ask our question, get the answer and move on. I'm generally a rarity, I like tech, love putting together a home theater system, love my pc, tablet, cell phones, readers. I consider them fun!

Uncle Robin · 09-08-2020, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfrizz

I think that for the most part, women can't be bothered doing a poll because we just don't care, we are too busy reading. We might show up, ask our question, get the answer and move on. I'm generally a rarity, I like tech, love putting together a home theater system, love my pc, tablet, cell phones, readers. I consider them fun!

Which would probably take longer than the 90 seconds average time taken to complete the 6-questions of the survey

ekbell · 09-09-2020, 12:00 AM

This woman looked at the survey and stopped to ponder the ambiguity of European. Was ancestry or culture the most important consideration? How similar is European and Canadian culture? ....

And then I realized that I had to continue with my day and by the time I returned the survey was closed.

Uncle Robin · 09-09-2020, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekbell

How similar is European and Canadian culture? ....

Drat! Seems I should have offered "Quite/Assez" as an option here.

4691mls · 09-09-2020, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekbell

This woman looked at the survey and stopped to ponder the ambiguity of European. Was ancestry or culture the most important consideration?

This is what I wondered about too.

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09-07-2020, 07:22 PM	#32
MarjaE Guru Posts: 942 Karma: 53902736 Join Date: Jun 2015 Device: multiple	I used to do a lot of reading on my computer, before switching to e-readers. I am surprised that there seems to be a meh/hate split for audio instead of a love/hate split. I have hyperacusis, and auditory processing problems, and live in a painfully noisy neighborhood, so for me it's a definite hate, but I can imagine for some people it's the opposite. Maybe using a bulletin board causes some sampling bias.

09-08-2020, 08:34 AM	#37
issybird o saeclum infacetum Posts: 21,517 Karma: 236076651 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: New England Device: Mini, H2O, Glo HD, Aura One, PW4, PW5	This was fun. Some of it confirms what I’d already assumed, particularly in the context of an internet forum. Sheer speculation as to what extent this skews the results. The age, for example, which is three quarters middle-aged and old - is that because readers tend to be codgers, or because forums mostly consist of codgers? Some of both, of course, but how much? I think what most stuck out for me is that MR skews male. I reveal my own gender bias by saying that if one sex reads more than the other, I’d have thought it was female. Is it the technical aspect of MR? Is that a biased question? Are males simply more likely to answer polls? What did get an eyeroll from me are the answers that seemed to be uncomfortable with choosing European instead of white. But since there was a multiple choice option, I assume that some chose European and then other to define it. Why, I don’t know. Thanks, Uncle Robin.

09-09-2020, 12:00 AM	#43
ekbell Guru Posts: 628 Karma: 12345678 Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Canada Device: none	This woman looked at the survey and stopped to ponder the ambiguity of European. Was ancestry or culture the most important consideration? How similar is European and Canadian culture? .... And then I realized that I had to continue with my day and by the time I returned the survey was closed.