Am I wrong in thinking this?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

None of those are formats.

Nor did Sony invent any of the underlying technologies.
Beta, Minidisk, and ATRAC they did invent. And go nowhere.

The one format they did invent that was going places was LRF...
...and they ditched it just as the market for it was taking off.

Those were troubled times for Sony. It's what happens when a company needs to change, the CEO has a prescription, and everybody else spends their time ignoring him.

[hobnail]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

The audio compact disc (jointly with Philips) and the 3.5" floppy disk.

Yeah, definitely a full point for the floppy.

I've always wondered why their formats had such a poor success rate; their designs are good. My theory is that it was due to high licensing costs.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by hobnail

Yeah, definitely a full point for the floppy.

I've always wondered why their formats had such a poor success rate; their designs are good. My theory is that it was due to high licensing costs.

For NTSC, Betamax was originally limited to 60 minutes recording time while VHS had 120 minute recording time. Add in Japan Victor Corp. was willing to license their technology while Sony did not want to license Betamax. Sony did start licensing around 1983(?) but the licensing for Betamax was about double the cost per machine of a VHS license which helped keep Betamax from competing with VHS for the few manufacturers who licensed Betamax.

Basically, the way I saw it then was that Sony was betting people would want the slightly higher quality of Betamax while the consumers voted for lower price, longer recording times and, as Betamax started losing market share, easy availability of content.

Personally, I purchased my first VHS VCR when I replaced the Beta VCR I first owned and used for 3 years (1977-1979). The VHS VCR cost about $250 Cdn. less than the cost of the feature equivalent Betamax VCR. Our main use for the VCR was my wife's enthusiasm for time shifting and while Beta may have had a theoretical edge in quality, when recording over the air programs, the difference was pretty much impossible to see and I had to buy fewer tapes.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Our main use for the VCR was my wife's enthusiasm for time shifting and while Beta may have had a theoretical edge in quality, when recording over the air programs, the difference was pretty much impossible to see and I had to buy fewer tapes.

That was the main use by far. Soap opera fans in particular loved the things, especially the six hour mode. A week's worth of the soap on one tape; binged on sunday. Rinse and repeat. (Also fans of striped syndicated shows, like STAR TREK. Or even first run. I had the entire DS:9, ad-free, on tape.) Sony intended Beta originally for movie sales, with occassional recording of live events; parties and family gatherings. Consumers found better uses.

The difference between 1:45 and 2:00 was the kingmaker.

And stores noticed fast.
The biggest outlets carried Beta to the end but small outlets (and those mattered a lot in those pre-BEST BUY days when even Circuit City was just a smallish regional chain) stopped carrying BETA long before it died. Retailers need volume and they need speed. We see this today in B&M retailing, where big chain stores decimated smaller independents and were in turned outclassed by online.

BETA vs VHS is relevant here as in most markets where nitably different products compete for consumer dollars.

When it comes to the competition between consumer products, how consumers view and use the gadget is always more important than the specs or how reviewers, evangelists, and techies see the differences. A small technical difference can make an enormous difference while a feature (or features) that some see as critical gets dismissed by the majority who find other reasons far outweigh any specsheet. Consumers vote their wallets accordingly. And retaiers by necessity follow them.

This is why, apropos to the OP, the retailer voted their inventory money, *their* wallet the way they did. They simply can't afford to tie up any of their cash flow in slow moving, low income stock.

Anytime you see what look like oddities, follow the money. You'll find wallets being voted.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by theducks

I think it is more that people are:
...

Just wait till the Network crashes for hours or days, weeks or even months (disaster or extreme weather). My Vinyl disc/CD/Tape/DVD/Bluray collection still works. Just power the player up. Paper books need no power (I find it amazing the number of officials that have let our backup emergency systems deteriorate, while living in Earthquake/Tornado/Flood prone areas )

That's pretty much the approach I take. I've had my internet connection go out for several hours more than one. I can watch the baseball game on my iPhone using the streaming apps, but yea just pop a DVD/Blu-Ray in.

I buy my digital downloads from iTunes and download it on to my main computer. I convert it to mp4 and stick it on one of my drobos so I can watch it if Apple's servers are down or I don't have an internet connection. I generally watch via Apple TV, but it's nice having the back up. I'm a belt and suspenders sort of guy.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ilovejedd

New release digital is also expensive ($20-25).

Most of my 4K, I only paid $10-15 per movie. Exception being Marvel since I collect the steelbooks and I buy those on day one.

Funnily enough, I appreciate the higher 4K resolution more on a 12.9" iPad (~1.5-2' ft away) than on the TV.

iPads don't have 4K resolution. You are watching the HD version on the iPad. I agree, it can look very good on an iPad. I'll watch that way sometime rather than turn on my TV.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Nor did Sony invent any of the underlying technologies.
Beta, Minidisk, and ATRAC they did invent. And go nowhere.

The one format they did invent that was going places was LRF...
...and they ditched it just as the market for it was taking off.

Those were troubled times for Sony. It's what happens when a company needs to change, the CEO has a prescription, and everybody else spends their time ignoring him.

When there are no (prior) market standards, someone has to TRY and get theirs adopted (Market Leader). HP sort of managed with HPIB -> IEEE488, but it is rare. No one wants to pay ROYALTIES to their competitor. It usually takes a industry standards group.. IEEE, USB, W3C... to avoid $$ to others. Usually, it is Consumer stuff that gets Industries attention (volume sales potential). IBM did it with their personal computer (then lost the ball :/ )

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by theducks

When there are no (prior) market standards, someone has to TRY and get theirs adopted (Market Leader). HP sort of managed with HPIB -> IEEE488, but it is rare. No one wants to pay ROYALTIES to their competitor. It usually takes a industry standards group.. IEEE, USB, W3C... to avoid $$ to others. Usually, it is Consumer stuff that gets Industries attention (volume sales potential). IBM did it with their personal computer (then lost the ball :/ )

Pretty much.
VC9 was killing it early in the BD era because it was the only licensor (vs 25 in the LA MPEG group) and tbus cheaper, it had better autgoring software, because it enabled full HD movies in the cheaper, more durable single layer BD disks. Eventually the H.264 rates came down and since they included MPEG for DVD compatibility VC9 prospects dimmed.

Sony had the right idea, in some cases, but others like ATRAC and Memory stick were just NIH (not invented here) "solutions" meant to leverage brand loyalty to avoid paying royalties. That is why killing LRF in favor of the committee format ePub is so ironic. The one time the market was swinging in favor of walled gardens is the time tbey chose to go open.

Going proprietary or open isn't a clear choice, no matter what many advocates say. Sony's failures weren't just from going proorietary buy in timing and execution. Like, ATRAC was years too late to challenge MP3 or even WMA and on top of it too user hostile. Their hardware was nice but ATRAC made it unbuyable.

Like the early precursors of this:

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-...man-mp3-player

Great ergonomics and controls, lousy software.


Oftentimes proprietary can move faster than open committees but it requires moving at least as fast as the market. IBM needed openness to establish the PC but once Don Estridge died the people that took over and moved to MicroChannel and refused to license it couldn't keep pace with the clones and their quarterly new product releases. There were any number of steps IBM could've taken to stay ahead of the clones but yearly refreshes weren't one of them. Neither was the intentionally crippled PC Jr.

eBooks have stabilized lately now that it has settled into a MMPB replacement but early on the agility of proprietary allowed the simplicity of whispersync to run unchallenged for the most critical years when installed bases were being built. While everybody argued formats and hardware, it was standalone wireless delivery that shaped the market.

A further irony is that back when it was a competitive advantage, Amazon offered to license whispersync and found no takers.

By now wireless delivery is standard but Whispersync was "the firstest with the mostest". Prime mover advantage is powerful; IBM blew it, Kindle hasn't.

[Quoth]

Licence costs killed Firewire. Superior to USB2, peer to peer and even has network hubs.

No-one needs a Whispersync licence. Loads of protocols will work over Mobile or 3G and cope with interrupted transfers or connections, or even reconnecting on WiFi the next day after the Mobile failed. A solved problem years before Amazon bought Mobipocket or did a Kindle.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

That was the main use by far. Soap opera fans in particular loved the things, especially the six hour mode. A week's worth of the soap on one tape; binged on sunday. Rinse and repeat. (Also fans of striped syndicated shows, like STAR TREK. Or even first run. I had the entire DS:9, ad-free, on tape.) Sony intended Beta originally for movie sales, with occassional recording of live events; parties and family gatherings. Consumers found better uses.

Don't remind me. I still cringe when I hear the Days of Our Lives opening. 45 years and the Salem police department still can't find their asses with both hands, a flashlight and a map.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Anytime you see what look like oddities, follow the money. You'll find wallets being voted.

Eeyup.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Quoth

No-one needs a Whispersync licence. Loads of protocols will work over Mobile or 3G and cope with interrupted transfers or connections, or even reconnecting on WiFi the next day after the Mobile failed. A solved problem years before Amazon bought Mobipocket or did a Kindle.

We're talking ebooks, okay?
So, how long was Kindle was the only ereader that didn't need a PC to feed it?
Or even WiFi? They had celluar wireless from day one. 2007. Still do.
It's *still* practically the only one that doesn't need a PC or wifi.

https://www.amazon.com/PQ948KJ/dp/B0...82565820&psc=1

Anybody else?

Also, don't forget Whispersync isn't just about wireless delivery. There's the reading synchonization across platforms, reader-specific email for file delivery (and conversion), the free could for user documents. All that is part of whispersync. How many readers do that out if box, with no special owner configuration. Kidle all that from day one, when (as I said) it *most* mattered.

Just because generic ereaders have wireless delivery *now* doesn't mean they did when the market was taking shape in 2010-14.

Sony was one that went several years hyping premium metal construction, touch screens, lighting, anything *but* wireless.

Nook at least matched Kindle in delivery, at least, from day one so it wasn't impossible back in those days. That was part of Nook's international appeal and missed opportunity.

So yes, the protocols existed; readers *using* them didn't, other than Kindle and Nook. By the time generic ADEPT readers could be fed directly, *without* a PC, Kindle had a dominant position that Amazon hasn't lost.

Timing matters and so does the installed base from those days, when Kindles sold by the millions and competitors by tens of thousands. (Sony and Pocketbook managed 100,000 each while Amazon did as many as 4 Million Kindle 3 a yeat.)

The past casts a long shadow over mindshare and mindshare over sales share.

[ilovejedd]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

iPads don't have 4K resolution. You are watching the HD version on the iPad. I agree, it can look very good on an iPad. I'll watch that way sometime rather than turn on my TV.

The 12.9" iPad is 2732 x 2048. Not quite 4K but it does benefit from higher than 1080p resolution. Netflix streams up to 1440p to this iPad. I believe iTunes downloads/streams are limited to 1080p to this device, though.

One of my test videos was definitely 4K. It was a 4K UHD Blu-ray MKV rip I made myself (straight rip, no re-encoding), shared via SMB server and played back with Infuse Pro. Of course, I expect it does get downsampled to 2732 x 1536 but that's still considerable more detail than 1080p. I was comparing it to the regular Blu-ray rip of the same movie. Avengers: Endgame, sharpness/detail was particularly noticeable on the scenes with Japanese stylized subtitles.

More than the sharpness/detail though, the colors are really what pop out.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by theducks

Just wait till the Network crashes for hours or days, weeks or even months (disaster or extreme weather). My Vinyl disc/CD/Tape/DVD/Bluray collection still works. Just power the player up. Paper books need no power (I find it amazing the number of officials that have let our backup emergency systems deteriorate, while living in Earthquake/Tornado/Flood prone areas )

I'm in the situation you describe. Our internet went out Saturday afternoon and won't be back up until the Comcast guy arrives tomorrow afternoon (if I'm lucky).

So yeah, I have a large collection of DVDs and blu-ray. But alas! My Samsung fell victim to the blu-ray boot loop apocalypse.

Meanwhile I've turned my phone into a hot spot and we're watching Peter Pan on Disney+

Don't feel too smug because of your physical media.

And also:

Just wait till the Network crashes for hours or days, weeks or even months... My Vinyl disc/CD/Tape/DVD/Bluray collection still works. Just power the player up.

Buddy, if you have no internet access for months:

• You likely also don't have power
• You have bigger problems than watching DVDs while feeling superior

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Don't remind me. I still cringe when I hear the Days of Our Lives opening. 45 years and the Salem police department still can't find their asses with both hands, a flashlight and a map.

When I hear the Days of Our Lives opening, I think of the movie 9 to 5. When they had Mr. Hart trapped in his room and he spent his days watching Days of Our Lives.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

We're talking ebooks, okay?
So, how long was Kindle was the only ereader that didn't need a PC to feed it?
Or even WiFi? They had celluar wireless from day one. 2007. Still do.
It's *still* practically the only one that doesn't need a PC or wifi.

It's purely a marketing decision. Not technology. The hardware and software predates even Amazon as a company never mind the Kindle! No-one needed to licence Whispernet.
I was working on such HW & SW in 1988.