Christian Science Monitor labels Kindle a ‘Trojan horse’ - Page 2

daffy4u · 03-19-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NormHart

If I am correctly reading Ms. Walshe's comments her article is more about the control of books and the implications of DMR and proprietary access. It singles out Kindle due to it's recent high visibility but applies to any ereader that has proprietary access and DMR content IMO.

I didn't read the article. I was responding to the following sentence in the original post.

Quote:

Walshe warns that the restrictions Amazon places on use of the Kindle and Kindle purchases mean you are not really buying “a book” when you buy a Kindle e-book; you are buying access to a book.

I should have added the quote to my post. Sorry for the confusion.

Sonist · 03-19-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I've been aware that I am long term leasing each book I "buy" from Amazon. Since I'm not a big re-reader, I don't have a problem with this. Those books I feel I will re-read (my Stephen King collection), I make sure I obtain in multiple formats (ebooks, paper, audio...).

Those who prefer to "own" every ebook they read, should probably not buy a Kindle.

Hey, I think it's more about the principle, than specific instances.

In any case, if I could not strip the DRM off Amazon books, I would buy NONE.

One should not be forced to purchase multiple copies in order to re-read a book, or to consult it as reference. This is actually one of the greatest advantages of ereaders: the ability to access a large number of book files you OWN.

As to re-reading Stephen King, or even reading him ..., I'll just hold my tongue

daffy4u · 03-19-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

I think it's more about the principle, than specific instances.

In any case, if I could not strip the DRM off Amazon books, I would buy NONE.

One should not be forced to purchase multiple copies in order to re-read a book, or to consult it as reference. This is actually one of the greatest advantages of ereaders: the ability to access a large number of book files you OWN.

As to re-reading Stephen King, or even reading him ..., I'll just hold my tongue

In principle based on my reading style, and the pricing, I don't have an issue. Many people may feel the same way (many may not).

I am not forced to buy my King books in multiple formats, I choose to. I like being able to access them in any way I choose. Some I prefer to read others I prefer to listen to. I'm wacky that way.

I also don't have a problem with people not liking King. If we all liked the same things, the world and this forum would be really boring. "Variety is the spice of life" as they say.

Shaggy · 03-19-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I've been aware that I am long term leasing each book I "buy" from Amazon. Since I'm not a big re-reader, I don't have a problem with this. Those books I feel I will re-read (my Stephen King collection), I make sure I obtain in multiple formats (ebooks, paper, audio...).

Those who prefer to "own" every ebook they read, should probably not buy a Kindle.

That's why, whenever possible, I buy eBooks in formats where the DRM can be removed.

MoboHobo · 03-19-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate the great

The pd stuff is DRM free.It was added back in late January.

Cool, did not know that.

AnemicOak · 03-19-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonist

In any case, if I could not strip the DRM off Amazon books, I would buy NONE.

Same here. Just like I've never bought a book from Sony.

JSWolf · 03-19-2009, 02:20 PM

I do have to agree with the issue of DRM restricting what we can do with our eBooks.

But because of the DMCA exception, if I have some eBooks I will not be reading again, can I sell them since they no longer have DRM and the DRM was legally stripped?

JSWolf · 03-19-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Same here. Just like I've never bought a book from Sony.

I am hoping that someday someone will break the DRM of LRX. The only eBooks from Sony I have purchased were purchased witht e $50 credit I got when I bought the 500.

DaleDe · 03-19-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I do have to agree with the issue of DRM restricting what we can do with our eBooks.

But because of the DMCA exception, if I have some eBooks I will not be reading again, can I sell them since they no longer have DRM and the DRM was legally stripped?

How was it that DRM was legally removed. Are you blind or have a seeing disability? If you sell them then DRM is not legal to remove no matter what.

Dale

Sonist · 03-19-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

How was it that DRM was legally removed. Are you blind or have a seeing disability? If you sell them then DRM is not legal to remove no matter what.

Dale

That's why it's a stupid law. Representatives who support stuff like this should be targeted by consumers and voted out of office.

You paid for it, you should be able to transfer the rights to someone else, if you decide you don't want it, or transfer the hardware. The world will not end for publishers. Just like it didn't end for the movie studios when they lost to Sony.

If you price the books fairly according to the market, the market will continue function, just like it always has. If you don't, you'll lose many of your potential customers to piracy.

Virtually all books I purchased on Amazon (and promptly removed the DRM from,) were available for download for free. I and most consumers, are perfectly happy to pay a fair price for a product we want.

Robotech_Master · 03-19-2009, 04:43 PM

The problem is that you can far too easily "transfer the rights" while still cheerfully keeping a copy for yourself. (Of course, if you rip your CD or DVD, you can do this too, but at least you're not "supposed" to.)

Shaggy · 03-19-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robotech_Master

The problem is that you can far too easily "transfer the rights" while still cheerfully keeping a copy for yourself.

So the answer is to just assume everybody is a criminal and remove the first-sale doctrine?

Xenophon · 03-19-2009, 05:06 PM

For those who are late to the party, it is worth knowing a few things about posters and their positions on DRM.

Pretty much no one here at MobileRead actually likes it.
There is a group of posters who keep referring to the "exception" as a reason why anyone can legally remove DRM from an eBook (one of them posted above). Other posters claim that this exception applies only to individuals who are themselves handicapped in ways that require read-aloud functionality.
There is another group of posters who keep claiming the removing DRM is "almost certainly illegal" under the DMCA. Or even "clearly illegal" under the DMCA. Some of them have posted above.
Still other posters (including me) maintain that the legal status of removing DRM from legally acquired content (for personal use only) is entirely unclear and will remain so either until congress passes new legislation or the courts straighten it out via case law and precedent. In taking this position, I am arguing from authority (always a poor tactic!) having heard eminent legal experts say that removing DRM from legally acquired content is obviously legal, and other equally eminent legal experts say that it is obviously illegal.
MobileRead site policy is to support legal acquisition of eBooks and to forbid discussion of techniques for "pirating" ebooks along with forbidding discussion of tools and sites for same. (I think I got that right...)

All of the above is speaking in terms of U.S. law, of course. Other countries, other laws.

We now return to your regularly scheduled disagreements...

Xenophon

Patricia · 03-19-2009, 05:51 PM

That's a neat summary, Xenophon. Thanks.

JSWolf · 03-19-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

How was it that DRM was legally removed. Are you blind or have a seeing disability? If you sell them then DRM is not legal to remove no matter what.

Dale

DRM was legally removed from MS Reader files under the DMCA exemptions. The exemption does not say I have to be disabled. So now that I have these legally DRM free files, I should be able to sell them. Also, what about eBooks purchased from Baen, or multi-format or DRM free giveaways?

03-19-2009, 05:06 PM	#28
Xenophon curmudgeon Posts: 1,487 Karma: 5748190 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Redwood City, CA USA Device: Kobo Aura HD, (ex)nook, (ex)PRS-700, (ex)PRS-500	For those who are late to the party, it is worth knowing a few things about posters and their positions on DRM. Pretty much no one here at MobileRead actually likes it. There is a group of posters who keep referring to the "exception" as a reason why anyone can legally remove DRM from an eBook (one of them posted above). Other posters claim that this exception applies only to individuals who are themselves handicapped in ways that require read-aloud functionality. There is another group of posters who keep claiming the removing DRM is "almost certainly illegal" under the DMCA. Or even "clearly illegal" under the DMCA. Some of them have posted above. Still other posters (including me) maintain that the legal status of removing DRM from legally acquired content (for personal use only) is entirely unclear and will remain so either until congress passes new legislation or the courts straighten it out via case law and precedent. In taking this position, I am arguing from authority (always a poor tactic!) having heard eminent legal experts say that removing DRM from legally acquired content is obviously legal, and other equally eminent legal experts say that it is obviously illegal. MobileRead site policy is to support legal acquisition of eBooks and to forbid discussion of techniques for "pirating" ebooks along with forbidding discussion of tools and sites for same. (I think I got that right...) All of the above is speaking in terms of U.S. law, of course. Other countries, other laws. We now return to your regularly scheduled disagreements... Xenophon

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03-19-2009, 02:20 PM	#22
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,756 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	I do have to agree with the issue of DRM restricting what we can do with our eBooks. But because of the DMCA exception, if I have some eBooks I will not be reading again, can I sell them since they no longer have DRM and the DRM was legally stripped?

03-19-2009, 04:43 PM	#26
Robotech_Master Fanatic Posts: 514 Karma: 2954711 Join Date: May 2006	The problem is that you can far too easily "transfer the rights" while still cheerfully keeping a copy for yourself. (Of course, if you rip your CD or DVD, you can do this too, but at least you're not "supposed" to.)

03-19-2009, 05:51 PM	#29
Patricia Reader Posts: 11,504 Karma: 8720163 Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Wales, UK Device: Sony PRS-500, PRS-505, Asus EEEpc 4G	That's a neat summary, Xenophon. Thanks.