The open ended series

[issybird]

The architect/gardener metaphor strikes me as a false dichotomy, a facile justification for the gardeners, frankly. Architects can incorporate gardens in service of the grand design, but many gardens turn into briar patches.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The Civil Campaign is also the last of the Vorkosigan that I really liked. I'm not sure if I just lost the train of action, or didn't really care for the change of focus. I haven't read the last couple.

After A Civil Campaign, I enjoyed Winterfair Gifts and Captain Vorpatril's Alliance but Diplomatic Immunity was, to me, not up to the other books in the series. I do have Cryoburn and Commander Jole and the Red Queen which I read and enjoyed but am unlikely to revisit anytime soon. I should add The Flowers of Vashnoi was enjoyable as a filler novella.

I still think of Ivan Vorpatril as LMB's vision of what Miles would have been if not for the soltoxin attack.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by issybird

The architect/gardener metaphor strikes me as a false dichotomy, a facile justification for the gardeners, frankly. Architects can incorporate gardens in service of the grand design, but many gardens turn into briar patches.

Agreed. It also implies that a writer's process is not supposed, or allowed, to ever evolve.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by issybird

but many gardens turn into briar patches.

Or "Meereenese Knots" for the GRRM apologists out there.

[curtw]

Funny to see complaints about series running too long. Just stop reading them! I have the opposite problem--David Brin not returning to his Uplift universe to tie up dozens of loose ends.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by curtw

Funny to see complaints about series running too long. Just stop reading them!

What makes you think I haven't? The problem is that series running too long is par for the course for the genre I'd like to be reading. I'm complaining because series (and anything over 2 books is typically "too long" for me) are the only things being written in the fantasy genre. "Stop reading fantasy" isn't an option I care for, so I feel pretty justified in complaining about it.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by curtw

Funny to see complaints about series running too long. Just stop reading them! I have the opposite problem--David Brin not returning to his Uplift universe to tie up dozens of loose ends.

And people do, of course. But books imply a different form of storytelling than Days of Our Lives.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

...I just wish that 1) the series mindset wasn't the de facto standard for speculative genres...

Oh man, tell me about it. A pox on series, I say.

That's likely why I tend to read older books. Series were less popular then and at least if it was a series, you know already whether the series wrapped up or not.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Oh man, tell me about it. A pox on series, I say.

That's likely why I tend to read older books. Series were less popular then and at least if it was a series, you know already whether the series wrapped up or not.

I've read more than a few books where the book was a reasonable stand alone book, but was also open ended enough to allow follow on books if the first book was popular enough. Sometimes it became the start of a series, other times, it was simply a stand alone book.

I'm sure that there are authors who had the ending in mind when they started a series - J.K. Rowlings supposedly wrote the last scene of book 7 and put it in a bank vault early on. For that matter, David Weber supposedly had a final battle where Honor Harrington dies in mind when he started the Honor Harrington series, but scrapped the idea at some point.

It's very, very hard to keep a series going for a large number of books. The book that I was reading when I started this thread currently has three books in it. When I started the series, it seemed like a three maybe four book series. Now, after reading book three, it seems to me like it's going to be at least a ten book series. It's pretty unlikely that I'm going to maintain interest in the series that long.

In general, I'm not happy with authors who start a series with a promised end, then never get there, a la Martin and Rothfuss.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I've read more than a few books where the book was a reasonable stand alone book, but was also open ended enough to allow follow on books if the first book was popular enough. Sometimes it became the start of a series, other times, it was simply a stand alone book.

"Reasonably standalone" and "open ended enough" are exactly the type of waffling descriptions that don't help me one bit. It is my opinion that "reasonably stand alone" is just double-speak for "NOT stand alone." Used primarily by people who want really badly to recommend non-standalone books to people who have specifically asked for standalone recommendations.

"It CAN stand alone" is another.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I've read more than a few books where the book was a reasonable stand alone book, but was also open ended enough to allow follow on books if the first book was popular enough. Sometimes it became the start of a series, other times, it was simply a stand alone book.

Yeah, Star Wars was like that. From what I remember, so was Magic Kingdom For Sale-Sold!

I'm sure that there are authors who had the ending in mind when they started a series - J.K. Rowlings supposedly wrote the last scene of book 7 and put it in a bank vault early on. For that matter, David Weber supposedly had a final battle where Honor Harrington dies in mind when he started the Honor Harrington series, but scrapped the idea at some point.

It's very, very hard to keep a series going for a large number of books. The book that I was reading when I started this thread currently has three books in it. When I started the series, it seemed like a three maybe four book series. Now, after reading book three, it seems to me like it's going to be at least a ten book series. It's pretty unlikely that I'm going to maintain interest in the series that long.

Sounds like your making my case against series for me. Thank you.

In general, I'm not happy with authors who start a series with a promised end, then never get there, a la Martin and Rothfuss.

Quite honestly, I empathize with Martin and Rothfuss. I doubt these guys are holding back their work just to piss off their audience. You're mad, but imagine how they feel.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yeah, Star Wars was like that. From what I remember, so was Magic Kingdom For Sale-Sold!



Sounds like your making my case against series for me. Thank you.



Quite honestly, I empathize with Martin and Rothfuss. I doubt these guys are holding back their work just to piss off their audience. You're mad, but imagine how they feel.

If they feel bad about it, then they should finished the series. Writing is both a craft and a job. You don't get writer's block that lasts 9 years. Yea, sometimes life gets in the way, but eventually, you just have to acknowledge that it's become a low priority item for them.

I know some people won't start a series until the last book comes out. Most series that I've read do a good job though. If Rothfuss doesn't ever produce the Stone Door, that won't change that I really liked the first two books. That doesn't annoy me nearly as much as the author who starts meandering around mid series. My issue with Jordan wasn't that the WOT series was 13 books, 10 of which he wrote. My issue with Jordan was that the books progressively became less and less focused and IMPO the books became less interesting.

[Drake]

The Spinward Fringe Series by Randolph LaLonde is the first thing coming into my mind when I hear open ended series.
You get exactly what you ask for, a SF Universe developing with each part on the authors whim (or plan) with a set cast and enough options to deviate from the main storyarc. Not highest literature but great fun and I delightfully dive into each new book to find out what is happening next.

And by the way, Rothfuss is the most disappointing author of our times at the moment. Starting strong with two wonderful novels and keeping us hanging there, craving for the end.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Thomas Covenant was one of those popular series I was never able to get into (a couple of others were Abercrombie's and Steven Erikson's). I finished Lord Foul's Bane some 15 years ago or so, but didn't like the protagonist (he's not even an anti-hero, he's just an ass, imho, and not an interesting ass at that. Yep, I know that was kind of the whole point, but not my cuppa) and never read more books. The Mirror was better (I agree about gratuitous scenes, they were pretty weird. And I'm no prude).

I've read all but the last series. I really liked the books. It was one of those series where I'd go read and when I stopped, I didn't realize how much I had read.

[Luffy]

I gave Rothfuss's TNOTW 3 stars and the sequel TWMF 1 star on Goodreads. I fully know I'm in the minority, both in this thread and on Goodreads.