Borrowed Library book that has a "no DRM statement" - Page 2

Tomk2 · 12-09-2019, 12:35 PM

I found it.

I dont know how I missed this paragraph the first time I read the terms and conditions for Overdrive's Libby app. I suspect the preceding legal sections numbed my brain, and when I skipped over those sections today I retained enough cognition to find:

"For Content downloaded or accessed from a library service, at the end of the lending period, your license to the Content terminates, and you may no longer use or access the Content. At the end of the lending period, you shall delete and/or destroy any and all copies of the Content. In the event OverDrive, the library or other rights holders determines you are violating permitted uses of the Content, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your ability to use or access a Service or the Content"

So there it is. If you make a copy of non DRM protected books like stated in my OP, you are violating Libby (overdrive) terms and conditions if you dont delete/destroy your copy after your loan ends.

I find terms and conditions painful to read, but it IS in there.

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leebase · 12-09-2019, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Can you do it? Yes. Is it ethical? NO!

Correct. This thread demonstrates why DRM exists in the first place.

If people CAN copy, they WILL.

4691mls · 12-09-2019, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leebase

Correct. This thread demonstrates why DRM exists in the first place.

If people CAN copy, they WILL.

I'm sure some people will.

I choose to look at the positive side of this thread - Tomk wasn't sure what was legal, so he actually went to the time and trouble of not only asking here, but also thoroughly reading the Overdrive terms and conditions. So at least one person cared enough to do the right thing.

leebase · 12-09-2019, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I'm sure some people will.

I choose to look at the positive side of this thread - Tomk wasn't sure what was legal, so he actually went to the time and trouble of not only asking here, but also thoroughly reading the Overdrive terms and conditions. So at least one person cared enough to do the right thing.

Of course people will. Just like they check out music, rip to mp3's and take the cd's back.

I'm far less bothered by people copying music or other library materials than I am by folks wondering "is this ok"?

Really? This is something difficult to understand?

I remember when my kids were Jr. High age and I caught them copying music off the internet. "But dad, it's free!". Really? You, dearest daughter, thought this music that is sold in stores is just "free on the internet"?

I was more bothered by their attempt to play dumb "I didn't know this was wrong Dad" - than I was about them "violating copyright" (mustn't call it stealing....because it's pronounced differently).

When I was young I used to steal candy from stores. A little "five finger discount". And yes, since the advent of cassette tapes, I have copied music in my day.

But I knew I was stealing. I'm less bothered that I stole than I would be if I was just too stupid to realize I was doing something wrong.

JSWolf · 12-10-2019, 07:38 AM

Most of my cassette copying was music I owned so I could play it in the car.

Tomk2 · 12-10-2019, 09:22 AM

Leebase-

Look at it this way. If when you put the cd in your player it read a message from the performer or the studio stating that it was ok to make personal copies for your personal devices only, would your kids be stupid to wonder if they were stealing by making a copy off a borrowed cd ? That's the difference. The "no DRM" message on some e-books does just that. No requirement that you be the original purchaser or owner.

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leebase · 12-10-2019, 10:32 AM

That something isn’t protected by DRM does NOT equal an invitation to copy it. It means they prefer a more respectful approach to dealing with their customers. That you see it as an invitation to take what isn’t yours is far more problematic than someone who copies knowing that it’s wrong.

Tomk2 · 12-10-2019, 11:21 AM

It's not that the book lacks DRM. It is that there is a statement in the book that specifically says the lack of DRM was intentional, and you ARE permitted to make copies for personal use.

So I bought a book at a used book store. Payed a few dollars for it. Included in the book was a CD that had a bunch of the authors previous books in the series with no DRM. It forbids the sale of the digital content on the internet. It is clear the author put the CD in the new book to stimulate sales of the new book. Can I use them since I didnt buy the book new? If I give the CD to a Freind, can my freind use it?

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leebase · 12-10-2019, 11:33 AM

"The author and publisher have provided this e-book to you without Digital Rights Management software (DRM) applied so that you can enjoy reading it on your personal devices. This e-book is for your personal use only. You may not print or post this e-book, or make this e-book publicly available in any way. You may not copy, reproduce, or upload this e-book, other than to read it on one of your personal devices."

No DRM -- SO THAT you can enjoy it on your personal devices.

YOU MAY NOT -- copy, reproduce, or upload this e-book, other than to read it on one of your personal devices.

AS IF --- anybody should need explanation that you can't just check out a book from the library, make a copy of it, keep the copy, and return the book.

Tomk2 · 12-10-2019, 12:44 PM

And the explanation is that keeping a copy would violate the terms and conditions of using overdrive and the Libby app, but not the author or publishers rights.

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BookCat · 12-10-2019, 01:43 PM

This reminds me of a lively thread I inadvertently started on a techie forum when I bought my first laptop - I think it was 2005. Back then I lived in a high-density student area; instead of getting my own internet provider I piggy-backed on a student broadband. The one I chose changed according to the strength of the signal - most were unsecured.

I wanted to know if this was illegal; I knew it was immoral. The ensuing discussion focussed on ethics and became unnecessarily uncompromising.

rem736 · 12-10-2019, 02:10 PM

i was first surprised to find that some library loans go out without DRM.
but when i thought about these titles (they were from emily dickenson and ralph waldo emersion), i thought it could be that they are already in the public domain.

is this not why they go out without DRM?

gweeks · 12-10-2019, 02:29 PM

Baen at least is doing library books with no DRM. You are supposed to delete any copies you have at the end of your loan period, but they want to make it as easy as possible to read the book on your favorite hardware. This was one of the sticking points that caused it to take a long time for their books to make it into overdrive.

Greg

haertig · 12-10-2019, 02:35 PM

If you want to keep a library book past the due date, just check out a physical copy. All the libraries around here have instituted a "no fines" policy. I see no reason for them to have done that, except to encourage people to ignore due dates. I hate this new policy BTW, but that is what they have implemented. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why.

jhowell · 12-10-2019, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haertig

All the libraries around here have instituted a "no fines" policy. ... For the life of me, I cannot figure out why.

It is a complicated issue. See Not So Fine with Library Fines? A Look at the Overdue Debate for some reasons why this is popular now.

12-10-2019, 11:21 AM	#23
Tomk2 Groupie Posts: 151 Karma: 123456 Join Date: Sep 2019 Device: none	It's not that the book lacks DRM. It is that there is a statement in the book that specifically says the lack of DRM was intentional, and you ARE permitted to make copies for personal use. So I bought a book at a used book store. Payed a few dollars for it. Included in the book was a CD that had a bunch of the authors previous books in the series with no DRM. It forbids the sale of the digital content on the internet. It is clear the author put the CD in the new book to stimulate sales of the new book. Can I use them since I didnt buy the book new? If I give the CD to a Freind, can my freind use it? Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Last edited by Tomk2; 12-10-2019 at 11:26 AM.

12-10-2019, 12:44 PM	#25
Tomk2 Groupie Posts: 151 Karma: 123456 Join Date: Sep 2019 Device: none	And the explanation is that keeping a copy would violate the terms and conditions of using overdrive and the Libby app, but not the author or publishers rights. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Last edited by Tomk2; 12-10-2019 at 12:48 PM.

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12-09-2019, 12:35 PM	#16
Tomk2 Groupie Posts: 151 Karma: 123456 Join Date: Sep 2019 Device: none	I found it. I dont know how I missed this paragraph the first time I read the terms and conditions for Overdrive's Libby app. I suspect the preceding legal sections numbed my brain, and when I skipped over those sections today I retained enough cognition to find: "For Content downloaded or accessed from a library service, at the end of the lending period, your license to the Content terminates, and you may no longer use or access the Content. At the end of the lending period, you shall delete and/or destroy any and all copies of the Content. In the event OverDrive, the library or other rights holders determines you are violating permitted uses of the Content, we reserve the right to suspend or terminate your ability to use or access a Service or the Content" So there it is. If you make a copy of non DRM protected books like stated in my OP, you are violating Libby (overdrive) terms and conditions if you dont delete/destroy your copy after your loan ends. I find terms and conditions painful to read, but it IS in there. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

12-10-2019, 07:38 AM	#20
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,792 Karma: 146391129 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Most of my cassette copying was music I owned so I could play it in the car.

12-10-2019, 09:22 AM	#21
Tomk2 Groupie Posts: 151 Karma: 123456 Join Date: Sep 2019 Device: none	Leebase- Look at it this way. If when you put the cd in your player it read a message from the performer or the studio stating that it was ok to make personal copies for your personal devices only, would your kids be stupid to wonder if they were stealing by making a copy off a borrowed cd ? That's the difference. The "no DRM" message on some e-books does just that. No requirement that you be the original purchaser or owner. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

12-10-2019, 10:32 AM	#22
leebase Karma Kameleon Posts: 2,960 Karma: 26738313 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: iPad Mini, iPhone X, Kindle Fire Tab HD 8, Walmart Onn	That something isn’t protected by DRM does NOT equal an invitation to copy it. It means they prefer a more respectful approach to dealing with their customers. That you see it as an invitation to take what isn’t yours is far more problematic than someone who copies knowing that it’s wrong.

12-10-2019, 11:33 AM	#24
leebase Karma Kameleon Posts: 2,960 Karma: 26738313 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: iPad Mini, iPhone X, Kindle Fire Tab HD 8, Walmart Onn	"The author and publisher have provided this e-book to you without Digital Rights Management software (DRM) applied so that you can enjoy reading it on your personal devices. This e-book is for your personal use only. You may not print or post this e-book, or make this e-book publicly available in any way. You may not copy, reproduce, or upload this e-book, other than to read it on one of your personal devices." No DRM -- SO THAT you can enjoy it on your personal devices. YOU MAY NOT -- copy, reproduce, or upload this e-book, other than to read it on one of your personal devices. AS IF --- anybody should need explanation that you can't just check out a book from the library, make a copy of it, keep the copy, and return the book.

12-10-2019, 01:43 PM	#26
BookCat C L J Posts: 2,911 Karma: 21115458 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Birmingham UK Device: Sony e-reader 505, Kindle PW2, Kindle PW3, Kobo Libra2	This reminds me of a lively thread I inadvertently started on a techie forum when I bought my first laptop - I think it was 2005. Back then I lived in a high-density student area; instead of getting my own internet provider I piggy-backed on a student broadband. The one I chose changed according to the strength of the signal - most were unsecured. I wanted to know if this was illegal; I knew it was immoral. The ensuing discussion focussed on ethics and became unnecessarily uncompromising.

12-10-2019, 02:10 PM	#27
rem736 purpose priority passion Posts: 645 Karma: 9002000 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: socal, usa Device: sony prs-350, b&n ngp, rM2, kindle scribe, boox poke5	i was first surprised to find that some library loans go out without DRM. but when i thought about these titles (they were from emily dickenson and ralph waldo emersion), i thought it could be that they are already in the public domain. is this not why they go out without DRM?

12-10-2019, 02:29 PM	#28
gweeks Fanatic Posts: 509 Karma: 3455210 Join Date: Apr 2007 Device: Rocket, Nook ST, Kobo WiFi, Kindle PW	Baen at least is doing library books with no DRM. You are supposed to delete any copies you have at the end of your loan period, but they want to make it as easy as possible to read the book on your favorite hardware. This was one of the sticking points that caused it to take a long time for their books to make it into overdrive. Greg

12-10-2019, 02:35 PM	#29
haertig Wizard Posts: 1,897 Karma: 31522252 Join Date: Sep 2017 Device: PW3, Fire HD8 Gen7, Moto G7, Sansa Clip v2, Ruizu X26	If you want to keep a library book past the due date, just check out a physical copy. All the libraries around here have instituted a "no fines" policy. I see no reason for them to have done that, except to encourage people to ignore due dates. I hate this new policy BTW, but that is what they have implemented. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why.