Pricing and Policies ... what is fair?

[DiapDealer]

I still assert that dollar for dollar, buying a new ebook at current Big 5 prices (by an author you typically enjoy) and reading it is a better value--by far--than most other activities/hobbies people like to engage in. Movies, dining out, sporting events, concerts, plays--what have you. New Big 5 ebook releases provide more bang for my buck than any of them. So when I say I think current ebook prices are more than fair, THAT is what I'm basing it on.

I'm not "ceding" anything to "power brokers" or giant corporations. I'm simply acknowledging that the hours (hours) of enjoyment I get from reading one book--in whatever form I choose to buy it in--is an absolute bargain at current new-release prices compared to anything else I spend money on for personal enjoyment. And reading them is the only thing about books I place any value on. "Fair??" Hell yes it's a fair price. More than fair, in fact. YMMV, but lets not kid ourselves into believing that the price of new release ebooks from Big Pub is contributing to the decline of the western civilization for cripes sake.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I still assert that dollar for dollar, buying a new ebook at current Big 5 prices (by an author you typically enjoy) and reading it is a better value--by far--than most other activities/hobbies people like to engage in. Movies, dining out, sporting events, concerts, plays--what have you. New Big 5 ebook releases provide more bang for my buck than any of them. So when I say I think current ebook prices are more than fair, THAT is what I'm basing it on.

I'm not "ceding" anything to "power brokers" or giant corporations. I'm simply acknowledging that the hours (hours) of enjoyment I get from reading one book--in whatever form I choose to buy it in--is an absolute bargain at current new-release prices compared to anything else I spend money on for personal enjoyment. And reading them is the only thing about books I place any value on. "Fair??" Hell yes it's a fair price. More than fair, in fact. YMMV, but lets not kid ourselves into believing that the price of new release ebooks from Big Pub is contributing to the decline of the western civilization for cripes sake.

Your reasoning is impeccable, but subjective. Not all experiences are equal. I love reading and get a great deal of joy from it. But I also get a great deal of joy from a good movie, concert or the like. It is fair to say that the latter usually offer not only a different but a much more intense experience over their shorter duration. I suspect that most of us partake of a number of different entertainments, and place different values on those entertainments. Value is not necessarily determinative of the price one is prepared to pay.

On a dollar for dollar basis, reading is one of the cheaper forms of entertainment on an hourly basis. But if the question is whether Big 5 e-books represent good value for money, I would compare them with other books rather than with a trip to the ballet or the theatre or even the local football ground. Personally I don't think Big 5 e-books are generally great value for money, though they are getting better. I know others here, particularly those who mostly read non-fiction, strongly disagree with me on this. Which I respect. It is a highly subjective matter.

What we do seem to agree on is that reading is a very cost effective entertainment. And that Big 5 new release prices are a trivial issue.

[leebase]

"Not worth the money" is completely different than "unfair".

Is it fair that Aussies are charged more for a book than Americans? I have no idea. It's simply one of the many "it doesn't matter" factors that go into pricing a book that have ZERO to do with my decision making.

What does the book cost? Am I willing to pay the cost to read the book. End of story. Does not matter how much of the price of the book comes from taxes, tariffs, infrastructure, paying the author, the cover artist, the copy editor, the publisher's executive assistant, the cost of healthcare....or ANYTHING.

All that enters into the equation is "book is offered at a price" -- I decide to pay the price or I don't. It's none of my business whether the publisher's secretary gets free coffee or what the decidable for her prescription copay is.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I still assert that dollar for dollar, buying a new ebook at current Big 5 prices (by an author you typically enjoy) and reading it is a better value--by far--than most other activities/hobbies people like to engage in. Movies, dining out, sporting events, concerts, plays--what have you. New Big 5 ebook releases provide more bang for my buck than any of them. So when I say I think current ebook prices are more than fair, THAT is what I'm basing it on.

I'm not "ceding" anything to "power brokers" or giant corporations. I'm simply acknowledging that the hours (hours) of enjoyment I get from reading one book--in whatever form I choose to buy it in--is an absolute bargain at current new-release prices compared to anything else I spend money on for personal enjoyment. And reading them is the only thing about books I place any value on. "Fair??" Hell yes it's a fair price. More than fair, in fact. YMMV, but lets not kid ourselves into believing that the price of new release ebooks from Big Pub is contributing to the decline of the western civilization for cripes sake.

Originally Posted by darryl

Your reasoning is impeccable, but subjective. Not all experiences are equal. I love reading and get a great deal of joy from it. But I also get a great deal of joy from a good movie, concert or the like. It is fair to say that the latter usually offer not only a different but a much more intense experience over their shorter duration. I suspect that most of us partake of a number of different entertainments, and place different values on those entertainments. Value is not necessarily determinative of the price one is prepared to pay.

On a dollar for dollar basis, reading is one of the cheaper forms of entertainment on an hourly basis. But if the question is whether Big 5 e-books represent good value for money, I would compare them with other books rather than with a trip to the ballet or the theatre or even the local football ground. Personally I don't think Big 5 e-books are generally great value for money, though they are getting better. I know others here, particularly those who mostly read non-fiction, strongly disagree with me on this. Which I respect. It is a highly subjective matter.

What we do seem to agree on is that reading is a very cost effective entertainment. And that Big 5 new release prices are a trivial issue.

I agree with DiapDealer and yes it is subjective, but isn't that the point? Most of us push our subjective views on each other. Some do it consciously and some unconsciously. For examples just look to this and quite a few other threads on Mobilreads.
Apache

[Alanon]

Originally Posted by darryl

I thought your first 3 paragraphs were excellent and made some good points. However, I find that I can't really discuss your last paragraph in any meaningful way without crossing the line into politics. Perhaps a good illustration of one of the points you made. This whole topic reeks of politics.

Since much was snipped in the time I wasn't on the forum, it's difficult to respond to replies that I can't read wholly, nor can I always understand the full reply without the bits excised. Sorry for that. To be fair, the title of the topic is pricing and policies - and it's quite difficult to have a discussion on matters of policy without at least brushing on some political issues, but, I get that it's been decided as outside the scope of this thread, and I'm okay with it. I do, however, find it ironic that political positions can remain strongly implied, and even outright injected into statements about the issues at hand, as long as the political underpinnings remain unnamed and not discussed openly. Hopefully, if we cannot discuss them, we might at least acknowledge the fact that it is so and move on. Hopefully, this remark won't be stricken as politicking...

To tie into (some of your) subsequent posts, I would agree that there is an individual sliding scale of preferences that might impact how much one person is willing to pay for a book, and that it is overwhelmingly subjective. I would also agree that books are still the most democratic and cheapest art form we can engage in. Technically, between Internet Archive, Open Library, OverDrive and Gutenberg, a good portion of it is often completely free. You can't beat that. What I would still argue is that subjectivity alone is not a good enough principle for pricing, simply because it never gives us the whole picture. Excluding flea markets, the final price of an item is never simply what one is willing to pay for it based on one's subjective liking.

There are differences between institution-based valuations and industrial valuations. Consider fine art. Artists that have had exhibitions at famous venues are worth more that those that have not, just as two hundred years or so ago, "academic" painters were priced accordingly, and considered the only real painters because they were trained at an academy. How many hours of enjoyment should one get from Salvator Mundi for it to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars? In contrast, paper books have always had a fine art component to them (first editions, bibliophile printings, etc.), as well as an industrial manufacture component (the printing press itself, paperbacks, etc.) In the book world, we've seen Great Books snobs, Harvard five-foot "shelfers", folks that read "only" hard Sci-Fi, and a myriad of other phenomena. Where do e-books fit in?

Now consider a less lofty example. McDonald's tries very hard to keep the burgers or whatever at a constant fixed price, because that's a threshold that's been established by them or by other forces, and they don't dare disappoint. Is the raw component value of the ingredients worth more or less than 99 cents, despite inflation? Is the nutrient value obtained equal or better than 99 cents worth of some other food? Is the, ehm, taste commensurate to the price tag? Haven't similar forces influenced pricing in the (e)book world? Have they already been fixed, or are they still malleable? If they are malleable, what forces determine the prices, other than, folks are willing to spend their cash. Rather than arguing for or against any policy, I think it's good and fruitful to discuss how and why such invisible barriers come into effect.

I think a lot of people seem to be ignoring the institutional power, ease and availability of "vetted" marketplaces, which most always function on a massive scale. In that regard, in the time the few of us here have been discussing the issues, outlining our reasoning and giving examples and arguments, an untold number of folks bought an untold number of books. Most people have an impulsive streak to purchasing a few dollars' worth of virtual items easily delivered within seconds, and it's them that we are discussing, far more than head-cases like us, because they are driving the market. The type of person who would tweak their reader is much more likely to be the kind of person to think about what kind of price they're getting, much more likely to shop around and be aware of price differences, if nothing else. That, too, is worth considering.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Alanon

Excluding flea markets, the final price of an item is never simply what one is willing to pay for it based on one's subjective liking.

It IS for the vast majority of buyers (MobileRead membership included). It's the beginning, middle, and end of it most times.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Alanon

Since much was snipped in the time I wasn't on the forum, it's difficult to respond to replies that I can't read wholly,
...

I didn't want to duplicate your post, but wanted to make it clear the post that I'm responding to.

To a great extent, this is what I mean by the market is already setting prices. Those price points are out there and a whole lot of people are buying at those prices.

I've posted my idea of the tiered audiences of books and ebooks before. The major driver is the mass of people who buy 10 or less books a year. While those of us who buy 100+ books a year may make specific authors happy, for the most part, our preferences are drowned out by all the people who buy just a few books in a given year.

It's interesting how the market has changed over the years. I have a 1975 paperback copy of Roger Zelazny's The Hand of Oberon, published by Avon. The price, $1.50 is printed on the cover of the book. Not a label on the book, it's printed as part of the cover in the top right hand corner.

Consider the implications of that. Back then, books were not automatically discounted like they are then. People actually paid the list price. Now, publishers have to take into account that books are going to be discounted as a matter of course. People expect to pay roughly half of the list price. The current number one book on Amazon's book list is Michael Connelly's The Night Fire. List price, $29.00. Amazon Hard cover price $17.40. Kindle price $14.99.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It IS for the vast majority of buyers (MobileRead membership included). It's the beginning, middle, and end of it most times.

If he were to say that the final price may not be what _you_ are willing to pay, but it is what enough people are willing to pay, then I think he is correct. In the US, very few items that people dicker over.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

If he were to say that the final price may not be what _you_ are willing to pay, but it is what enough people are willing to pay, then I think he is correct. In the US, very few items that people dicker over.

Well sure. Nobody's silly enough to believe the price they're personally willing to buy at is the market driver.

My point was that though there's a metric crap-ton of factors involved in pricing things for sale, the vast majority of buyers out there don't care about any of it. It's all about being willing to buy what they want (or not) for price X. I don't factor in the costs involved in producing the latest Whizzbang Widget when I'm deciding if I'm willing to pay the asking price for it. And likewise; I don't factor in the costs involved (or lack thereof) in producing an ebook when I'm deciding whether or not the going prices suit me.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It's interesting how the market has changed over the years. I have a 1975 paperback copy of Roger Zelazny's The Hand of Oberon, published by Avon. The price, $1.50 is printed on the cover of the book. Not a label on the book, it's printed as part of the cover in the top right hand corner.

Well now the price is on the back cover (near the barcode is the usual place) rather than the front, but it is still printed on, at least for all the books I've just checked.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Continually repeating the same thing at me, is not going to eventually bludgeon me into agreeing with your view or the view of others who do the same.

This comment coming from you is very rich.

Getting to your major point: What do you consider fair? You talk a lot about 'fair pricing', but what in dollars and cents is fair?

I've listed some books below. Please, advise what you consider to be the one true fair price for each:

The Institute by Stephen King
(A new Big 5 release by an internationally successful author)

The Golden Compass/Northern Lights by Philip Pullman
(A backlist, but perpetually popular book)

War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy, Pevear/Volokhonsky Translation
(A public domain book, but newly translated into English)

Hellstrom's Hive by Frank Herbert
(A more obscure book by a deceased but popular author)

Under A Raging Moon by Frank Zafiro
(A self published book by an indie author)

[MGlitch]

I'd add that Pullman's book, and the series, is getting a series on HBO which I think premiers soon.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Well now the price is on the back cover (near the barcode is the usual place) rather than the front, but it is still printed on, at least for all the books I've just checked.

Even when it's not printed on its own, you can look on the barcode. One of those two numbers contains the price at the end it should be fairly obvious by looking. For example some of the mass market A Song of Ice and Fire books I have have 799 in the tail end of the number. Obviously some level of critical thinking to figure the price out but rest assured it's not gonna be 192 for example.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

This comment coming from you is very rich.

Getting to your major point: What do you consider fair? You talk a lot about 'fair pricing', but what in dollars and cents is fair?

Gawd, you do like getting muddled up ... or is that deliberate, and a perfect example of why I am often forced to repeat myself. I am forced to that by willful blindness ... no doubt some agenda.

So as to fairness, I am asking not telling. It is not my place to make such a determination, that would be pure arrogance, something there is too much of by some others here already. I am entitled though, just like everyone is, to decide for myself if what has been determined by others as being fair, is fair to my mind ... going by the reasoning of facts & figures etc provided.

However, when something is clearly unfair, going by the comparative evidence, of course it is perfectly logical and normal for any of us to declare such.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by jhowell

That is not true. You can have different user accounts on your PC signed into a different Amazon account in Kindle for PC.

I will have to look at that again, because the last time I looked, it wasn't so.

I even attempted to do a dual boot PC with another copy of Windows, because even with another User, you could still not get around the limit (or so I had discovered by online research, and i wasn't about to add another User to my version of Windows without confirmation it worked).